thread to dis hyped releases that you don't get/don't like/wanna complain about

I think the comparisons of TS to Hershey’s and Skittles in this thread (as opposed to, presumably, more “gourmet” or “nourishing” fare) provide worthwhile insights into how certain ppl think about music.

oh I thought those were comparisons to Merseybeat and skiffle. seemed weird but whatever.

lol

ftr I intended this thread as one to complain about specific releases, not gonna thread police but imo "this artist is garbage" posts can go into one of the many musical challops threads, I'm more interested in critiques of the releases themselves (sure, the lines will blur)

Snark aside, I think this thread serves a useful purpose and I mostly enjoy following along. I don’t post much because I don’t spend much time thinking about music I don’t click with, and (as this thread occasionally makes clear) it’s genuinely hard for most people, myself included, to come up with interesting things to say about music that one is not inspired to spend time with.

To my mind the most interesting negative criticism tends to be more along the lines of constructive criticism, where you can see what would be a better-executed of the basic concept more starkly precisely because the end result almost gets there - if we must use gastronomic metaphors, less “this is like skittles whereas I am a gourmet”, more “this curry could have used some fresh coriander as a garnish.”

This salad dressing is the jam

sorry but I find Russian dressing trite, it lacks sincerity

trying to think of what else I hated this year, it's been such a weird year

Chris Forsyth is def an "I don't get the hype" category, 3rd rate Neil Young moves to my ears

Sault could use more seasoning

Brandy? More like White Claw. (not joking here; don’t get the enthusiasm for that record)

"Kick me under the table all you want, I won't shut up, I won't shut up"

-Donald J Trump

(I will say it's in fact super cool how she chases that chorus up & down the scale throughout the song)

What the fuck is this Yves Tumor shite?

now that's the spirit!

(ps yr wrong)

Relentlessly negative criticism can be constructive insofar as it implies that your time would be better spent paying attention to another – preferably undersung – artist. It is a vengeful meting out of justice, a rhetorical act of revolutionary Terror aimed at upending the status quo for the sake of aesthetic equality.

Still, I do agree that, in most cases, the pedagogical approach ('here is where you messed up, Timmy; now let me tell you how you can improve…') is the best and most civilized way of practicing the art of naysaying.

But that was never this thread's premise, was it? I mean, just look at OP's introductory post (and were you even targeting specific releases there, sleeve? ha!).

Relentlessly negative criticism can be constructive insofar as it implies that your time would be better spent paying attention to another – preferably undersung – artist. It is a vengeful meting out of justice, a rhetorical act of revolutionary Terror aimed at upending the status quo for the sake of aesthetic equality.

I guess i could vibe with this Benjaminian rhetoric more if it amounted to something more in practice than “this is shite”.

More innovation and pomo reconstruction in yr hate pls xp

I don’t disagree, Tim, I just... *points to thread yet again*

The Work of Art in the Age of Everyone Bitching Online

New Board Description.

I guess i could vibe with this Benjaminian rhetoric more if it amounted to something more in practice than “this is shite”.

I don't think pom was just saying "this is shite", though: "I honestly find her songs indistinctive and unmemorable", "her shtick just reeks of corporate artifice (which is fine in and of itself) even as it pseudo-earnestly pretends to be more than that (this is the part I find insufferable)", and "the whole thing just doesn't sound felt at all" are saying more than that, although maybe not in terms you consider valid.

Not much more!

Though it’s true, I typically cringe away from critique which is grounded in projecting onto the artist, especially in a context where one is not motivated to extend the artist the benefit of the doubt and doubly-especially when the projection goes to whether the artist is authentic or being sincere - I mean, positive projections are also usually a bad idea but at least more thought, and more content actually derived from the object of critique, tends to go into them.

I took an interest in her around the time of Fearless/Speak Now bc "Love Story" was pretty, I got excited that someone was getting jangly guitar pop on the radio, and the persona was endearing. In the end, I found both music and lyrics too thin (I've expanded elsewhere) to hold up for long, and with some of the directions she went in since then, even the surface charm started to get lost for me - and I tried a lot. Would never deny that she has a striking voice and skill for writing a hook.

Sounds fair to me.

Hm

I just intentionally listened to three back-to-back singles by The 1975 in hopes that I might have something to contribute to this thread but I’m disappointed to report that I enjoyed them

The lyrics are unappealing to the nth degree and I would sooner gun the singer down rather than have him date a relative but the music is a wonderful fusion of Tears For Fears and Collins-Genesis so as you were I guess

It seems to me, Tim, that 'projection' in your lingo means something akin to 'unpleasantly extraneous elements that I, Tim F, do not hear in the music I love'. Incidentally, I am not interested in knowing whether Taylor Swift really is sincere (that much is essentially unknowable), but whether her music *sounds* sincere does matter to me given the subgenre in which she operates. The work's more or less radiant 'aura' of sincerity has a bearing on whether I am emotionally invested in her songcraft or not.

I’ve argued in the past that I like TS best when she unintentionally subverts herself (I still contend that “You Belong With Me” works well as a song sung by a delusional stalker) but her shift to pop-pop imbued the tone of her songwriting with a winking irony that made these interpretations impossible— I haven’t listened to Folklore enough to really parse any opinions beyond “this is really well made and beautiful, congrats to everyone involved”

I think “this music doesn’t feel sincere to me” is handy shorthand for “i can see that this music is trying to forge an emotional connection with, and be relatable to, its listeners, but for a variety of reasons it doesn’t work on me.”

Rather than identifying a cause for the outcome, it restates the outcome.

“i can see that this music is trying to forge an emotional connection with, and be relatable to, its listeners, but for a variety of reasons it doesn’t work on me.”

You can say that about any music you dislike, not just music that strikes you as 'insincere'.

Once again, though, and at the risk of repeating myself, I am not a professional music critic who has been tasked with writing a detailed takedown of Taylor Swift's music for a major publication venue. I am an amateur (as in one who loves (music)) whose mercifully brief encounters with TS have been unpleasant enough that I saw fit to bitch about them in the quarantined thread that has been set up for this very purpose. And part of the reason I don't intend to muster a more convincing (to you and other Tay-tay fans) argument is because it would require me to spend more time with material I have no interest whatsoever in further exploring. Such is the amateur's prerogative.

You can say that about any music you dislike, not just music that strikes you as 'insincere'.

Right! this is kinda my point. Notions of sincerity appear to add something to the takedown but they end up begging the question - there’s a void in the critique that can either be skipped over with sleight of hand, or filled with projections as to the artist’s actual persona/intentions.

But yes you are right that seeking to apply some kind of standard tot he criticisms in this thread is probably a mug’s game.

I mean, it's music. So I feel the same way as pomenitul, and it's because some combination of the production, song structure, chords & melodies, vocal performance etc doesn't connect with me emotionally. That's an instant reaction on listening, but teasing out exactly why I have that reaction is where the critical brain comes in, which is interesting but shouldn't be a required justification (especially in this thread).

Fwiw, as a thought experiment, if someone were to commission such a screed from me, the insincerity angle would not be the cornerstone of my argument by any stretch of the imagination if only because it does indeed tend to draw upon an overly subjective rhetorical palette. That being said, I don't think reproaches of insincerity always bespeak a blind spot in one's negative impressions of a given work of art (emphasis on 'work of art' rather than 'artist'). In some cases, they can be convincingly deployed as part of a longer development, but such tactics require a minute conceptual deftness that is, once again, beyond this thread's shiposterrific scope.

*shitposterrific

lol I guess we’ll never know

I do think it would be interesting to hear some examples of artists that you (pom) consider sufficiently sincere.

I mentioned Billie Eilish upthread as a foil. But it's not so much the artist as the music, and the way the music sounds to *me*. For all I know, Taylor Swift herself may be 100% or 50% or 10% or 0% sincere in her musicmaking – it doesn't really matter.

No, I get that (and I’m not taking you to task). Billie is an interesting example... I could see others finding her stuff to be heavily “calculated” (as an artistic move, not necessarily in a negative sense).

were you even targeting specific releases there, sleeve? ha!).

I was! Whatever Jlin and Caretaker release was hot in 2017 was what I meant

Ha! x2, you don't even remember! I rest my case.

(I think it was Black Origami and stages 2 & 3 of Everywhere at the End of Time, all three of which are awesome btw.)

why the fuck would I ever bother to learn the names of those terrible records?

they represent similar dead ends w/r/t the time-stretch aesthetic

“Sincerity” insofar as pomenitul seems to be describing constitutes “this wealthy and established artist has failed to convince me that their recent art is being made for any motivation other than to accumulate further wealth” and I think that’s fair?

oh totally! not trying to detract from that sincere hatred in any way

but it also needed to be noted that I am STILL mad that I listened to the Jlin record

That's definitely part of it, fgti. Who knows, perhaps her love of the craft runs deeper than that, but it's not at all what I hear when her music is on.

xp bringing the thread back to its roots, I see. Now we're talkin'!

<3

That's an instant reaction on listening, but teasing out exactly why I have that reaction is where the critical brain comes in, which is interesting but shouldn't be a required justification (especially in this thread).

― change display name (Jordan), Sunday, 13 December 2020 02:00 (five hours ago) link

idk i feel like it should be required justification if you want people to engage w you seriously

i dont really jibe w taylor's music myself but i find myself more sympathetic to her fans than her critics itt ... critics seem to want to be able to comfortable blanket the thread in cynicism w/out being challenged, and she's not a particularly interesting target for this as someone whose output has been divisive among critics from day one and whom the generalized Rockist continues to dismiss out of hand ... i like that ilx is a place where ppl propped up by rockism come for stronger critiques than the people who get counterintuitive arguments even if it means we get the lex on paris hilton sometimes or whatever

in that vein i found the yves tumor kind of disappointing after his previous work and i'm surprised he's kind of hit this crossover moment, tyler the creator even called it one of his favorite projects this year

yeah i loved Safe In The Hands of Love but this year's album from them was really disappointing. going all in on glam rock was really not an interesting direction