King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

I've been listening to live KC shows today but quickly narrowed it to that line-up behind Lark's Tongue and Red - what an incredible unit. I like a lot of their stuff, but I keep coming back to Red and hearing those songs expanded on stage always knocks me out, especially the title track.

Will probably dive into the Great Deceiver live albums last (same era), but FWIW, the ones I'm really loving now are all from 1974, at Mainz, Asbury Park Casino and their last live show of the decade (!) at Central Park. The Central Park show unfortunately has no multi-track, just a copy made from the soundboard, but the performance more than makes up for it - it may even be my favorite despite the hit it takes in sound quality.

Do you think that the USA release gives enough of a taster of that era for those who don't want to listen to show after show?

had to miss the Milwaukee show because my daughter got sick...thought it was appendicitis but it was just an infection. yes i will hold this against her for life

...and while we're on the topic of live albums, has anyone made a more listenable playlist of the early 1972 live recordings than what wound up on the Earthbound LP?

xxp It's a good listen, but I think The Great Deceiver Parts One and Two is a much better (and still economical) pick. USA feels like a sampler since it omits some big numbers played on the tour. The Great Deceiver used to be an expensive four-CD box set, but it was reissued as two double-disc sets packaged in "slim" jewel cases and priced much lower than before. Still in-print and easy to find.

Actually, you could just get the Asbury Park show, which was newly mixed and released in 2005 - USA is mostly a heavily edited and overdubbed version of that with I think a few substitutions.

Halfway there but for you asked: "Do you think that the USA release gives enough of a taster of that era for those who don't want to listen to show after show?"

I highly recommend giving "The Great Deceiver" box a try, and one of the big advantages of it over "USA" is the amount of high-quality improvised material - those fellers were absolutely on fire.

xxxp - the Ladies of the Road set is pretty good for this

Forgot, the Mainz and Asbury Park shows were also paired together as The Collectable King Crimson: Volume One which is pretty cheap for a two-CD set. It does look a little cheap, but it's an official release and sounds great. The Great Deceiver - either as the box set or the two double-disc sets I mentioned - would be the one I'd get if I only make one purchase, but if you actually prefer whole shows, The Collectable King Crimson: Volume One or just the Asbury Park disc would be better than USA.

the friend I took to the KC show this year had barely listened to KC at all prior. I helped her move the other day and she put "Starless" on in the car and said it's her favorite song now

<3

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but just recently I heard this particular recording for the first time, and it blew my mind - "Schizoid Man" backing tracks recorded at Morgan Studios in 1969, with new overdubs to fill it out. (Listen to the spoken intro for the back story.) Most notably, Michael Giles's drums sound INCREDIBLE here; I always thought that the album version's snare drum sound was terrible! Like a cardboard box. The cymbals are more prominent and sound better here, too. Amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06ljRKlmys

"Ladies of the Road" 2xCD seconded! (For the Boz/Mel era.) The entire second disc is a Frankenstein's monster patchwork of 12 live recordings of "Schizoid Man" stitched together to make one mega-song. And for the record, I love "Earthbound" even with its low fidelity...that version of "Groon" is a wild ride.

The Mainz improv of The Savage into the Doctor Diamond (never recorded in the studio) is just the heaviest thing in the world. Wetton’s bass sounds absolutely enormous while Fripp and Cross duel over the top. It’s also incredible in surround.

Earthbound was remastered as much as possible, and expanded from 5 tracks to 12, this year. Still not amazing, but worth hearing for sure.

Those huge Red and Larks boxed sets containing (almost?) every known recording from each tour are bonkers. When they came out there were a few days I just put the shows on shuffle.

Don’t forget the Starless box as well

Starless box? Does that not have Fripp on it? (...I'll get my coat)

I have the Larks and Starless boxes. They are indeed enormous and overwhelming. As good as it is, I am slightly annoyed that the LTIA box didn’t have the only decent recording of that band as they hadn’t found the tape yet. And now I feel like I’ve had my fill of paying big bucks for that era so won’t be ponying up for it.

In other news, I’m def. finding myself a bit sad that this may be it. They have been a hugely important force in my life since I was 15, and it’s hard not to think the pandemic may have speeded the end of this particular band. But what a run, and I’m so glad I saw them on the last three tours when they came to Boston. Each show better than the last and surprising to boot. Now I just need to finally read Sid Smith’s book …

Enormous sadness that I didn’t go to the early September show in ny
But the delta wave rumblings… I just couldn’t quite do it. I’m trying not to be too hard on myself

On the plus side, a lot of the various current and former members (like Belew and Levin) have toured the KC stuff in various combos. I wouldn't be shocked if Jakko gets Fripp's permission to keep touring the music of Crimson.

Earthbound was remastered as much as possible, and expanded from 5 tracks to 12, this year. Still not amazing, but worth hearing for sure.

Thanks for the suggestions, I hadn't got around to listening to Ladies of the Road because I was expecting Earthbound revisited.
From the Wetton band I have heard The Night Watch live in Amsterdam in 1973, which might have been more of a revelation if it hadn't been cherry-picked for much of Starless and Bible Black.

I do find it funny that Fripp decided to reissue Earthbound despite spending decades talking about how much he hated it. Gotta respect the actual legacy of Crimson, I guess.

So I just finished Sid Smith’s revised In the Court of King Crimson – and I have to say: it was one of the best music biographies I’ve ever read (and candidly, they’re about all I read these days).

Yes, it’s a lot about the band – and if you are only a casual fan, it’s likely way more than you would ever want to know. But as a document of band dynamics—why some people play well together—and insight into the 70s British rock scene, it’s pretty incredible.

Smith is a legit great writer, which I’ve never quite noticed even as I’ve enjoyed his liner notes over the years. Also: structurally, I loved that Smith didn’t dwell on each record or have a ton of biographical wind-up, instead he sticks to the important stuff and puts a neat track-by-track overview at the end, which keeps things moving.

I’m sure I’ll have more thoughts but just a terrific biography on a band I’ve obsessed over for a very, very long time.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/king-crimson-documentary-trailer-robert-fripp-1293969/

It appears Ian McDonald has passed away:

The death of King Crimson co-founder, Ian McDonald, has been announced. His contribution to the original band was invaluable and profound. Our condolences to Ian's family. https://t.co/VUDoF1mB1C pic.twitter.com/pZR4V2g5pR

— KING CRIMSON (@DGMHQ) February 11, 2022

RIP

Here he is singing "Under the Sky" in the latter days of Giles, Giles and Fripp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZWL86EATY

He's gone just a week after we watched him apologize to Fripp in that trailer above. That band should have made at least another album or two before Fripp and Sinfield took charge.
I don't know why he never followed up the McDonald and Giles album from 1971, there could have been room for his more whimsical, light-hearted approach in progressive rock. By the time of the first Foreigner album, six years later, whatever he had to contribute was generic.

In the Sid Smith book, McDonald says he was just too young and immature to handle fame. Which is a shame because those opportunities don’t come around too often.

That said, one of the things I learned from the book was that McDonald’s guest appearance on Red and plans for him to rejoin the band on a subsequent tour was engineered not by Fripp but by Wetton. Which Fripp (perhaps correctly) interpreted as Wetton trying to “break” Crimson and was another nail in the coffin for that band in his eyes.

Meaning "break" the band commercially? Or "break" Fripp's control? I'd heard both Wetton and Bruford were eager for the band to sell better than they did.

Break them commercially. Smith writes that Wetton generally started getting much more assertive about that as the band went on – and talks about how he brought that same approach to UK, when he and Bruford formed it a few years later (with about the same degree of success). In that context, Asia—its breakthrough but also its super commercial material—makes a lot more sense. He’d been plugging away for 7 or 8 years.

McDonald tribute from Smith here:

When the fusion record has a trombone solo pic.twitter.com/7iSIe9Nirf

— Eli Anderson (@eliranderson) February 11, 2022

Ha! That is decidedly the wrong link. Corrected here: https://www.loudersound.com/news/ian-mcdonald-a-tribute

i wish robert would quit reposting those arguments over and over. FWIW I do think he reposted that because he agrees with Belew.

I think Robert agrees with Adrian, hence the repost.

I do as well. My sense is that Belew has never been fully resolved as to whether he is a solo artist or a Crimson guy. Some of that is him and his ego – some of it is him having come to realize he went in with a guy who is highly mercurial.

And now, Crimson is finished and he wasn’t even invited to be in the last iteration of the band. That’s rough.

I kind of like that about Belew. I mean, the guy was an integral part of some great music by David Bowie, Talking Heads, Frank Zappa and even Paul Simon on top of the incredible run with Crimson. His name came up the other day with regards to the Rock HOF - he's exactly the type of guy who should have been in by now for "Musical Excellence," a category that the HOF has been way too stingy about.

Ah wait, I misread that as Belew being mercurial.

Belew me away really

Tbh I think Belew has a pretty good reason to be irked by everything that’s happened with the band since 2014. How much is he going to factor in the documentary?

I agree. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest there would not have been a Crimson from 1981 to 1984 or 1994-2003 or whenever without Belew. Maybe the original plan of giving the band a different name would have been the right call after all? Anyway, I have no idea why the two fell out, since I thought they were friends. Maybe that was Belew's mistake? I also suspect Belew just didn't like playing KC songs written by other people, and maybe that lack of flexibility hurt his chances in the most recent/final lineup.

I’m not sure they’ve fallen out per se. They did during that last kerfuffle. But even then, Belew was talking about how he loved Fripp personally. Beyond what I imagine may have been a financial arrangement; I think part of what calmed Belew then was that Fripp kind of anointed him the 9th (or 10th) member in reserve, which gave him hope that he’d be back in at some point. Obviously that’s not the case anymore.

My sense is that Belew has never been fully resolved as to whether he is a solo artist or a Crimson guy.

In his book, Bruford identified this as a problem with the group.

...or with Belew in the group.

I like Belew a lot but I'll be perfectly frank: he was vitally important to the 80's incarnation (which I love) but I liked his input less and less after that. I think THRAK has great stuff on it but he's responsible for some of the worst things on the last two albums.

people who enjoyed Belew's tenure had many many years to enjoy it and see them live. People who didn't got a few years here without him. In all liklihood, Crimson as anyone knew it is now over for good. I'm sure there will be further offshoots in the future of different combinations of players (Belew, Mastoletto, Levin) that people will get to see and hear.

"Starless" from the final gig of the final tour, in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laKt80x0E4k

And posted this morning, two minutes of isolated Bruford & Wetton from Asbury Park '74:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nDJAru9_4

Listening to Pete Sinfield's Still. This is even more of a curio than the McDonald and Giles album, and it's no surprise he has never followed it up.
At first, I was put off by his singing, until I realized it's an unexpected bridge between the tweeness of Robin Gibb and the sarcasm of Howard Devoto (though not simultaneously). His attempts at country ("Will It Be You") and rock 'n' roll ("Wholefood Boogie") are attempts.
Still, I mean nonetheless, there are some very interesting dramatic ballad/production numbers here, this may be the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YcxrelCdpw

Did any ILXors see the KC documentary that premiered at SxSW? The "turn that fucking camera off" teaser trailer and what little I've read have me interested. The only review I've seen so far was at National Review, of all places.

Title track on Still is kinda funny - Greg Lake guests and his vocals are (obviously) so much better than Sinfields

Always loved the tune “Under the Sky” though the GG&F version is way better