King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

RIP

Here he is singing "Under the Sky" in the latter days of Giles, Giles and Fripp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZWL86EATY

He's gone just a week after we watched him apologize to Fripp in that trailer above. That band should have made at least another album or two before Fripp and Sinfield took charge.
I don't know why he never followed up the McDonald and Giles album from 1971, there could have been room for his more whimsical, light-hearted approach in progressive rock. By the time of the first Foreigner album, six years later, whatever he had to contribute was generic.

In the Sid Smith book, McDonald says he was just too young and immature to handle fame. Which is a shame because those opportunities don’t come around too often.

That said, one of the things I learned from the book was that McDonald’s guest appearance on Red and plans for him to rejoin the band on a subsequent tour was engineered not by Fripp but by Wetton. Which Fripp (perhaps correctly) interpreted as Wetton trying to “break” Crimson and was another nail in the coffin for that band in his eyes.

Meaning "break" the band commercially? Or "break" Fripp's control? I'd heard both Wetton and Bruford were eager for the band to sell better than they did.

Break them commercially. Smith writes that Wetton generally started getting much more assertive about that as the band went on – and talks about how he brought that same approach to UK, when he and Bruford formed it a few years later (with about the same degree of success). In that context, Asia—its breakthrough but also its super commercial material—makes a lot more sense. He’d been plugging away for 7 or 8 years.

McDonald tribute from Smith here:

When the fusion record has a trombone solo pic.twitter.com/7iSIe9Nirf

— Eli Anderson (@eliranderson) February 11, 2022

Ha! That is decidedly the wrong link. Corrected here: https://www.loudersound.com/news/ian-mcdonald-a-tribute

i wish robert would quit reposting those arguments over and over. FWIW I do think he reposted that because he agrees with Belew.

I think Robert agrees with Adrian, hence the repost.

I do as well. My sense is that Belew has never been fully resolved as to whether he is a solo artist or a Crimson guy. Some of that is him and his ego – some of it is him having come to realize he went in with a guy who is highly mercurial.

And now, Crimson is finished and he wasn’t even invited to be in the last iteration of the band. That’s rough.

I kind of like that about Belew. I mean, the guy was an integral part of some great music by David Bowie, Talking Heads, Frank Zappa and even Paul Simon on top of the incredible run with Crimson. His name came up the other day with regards to the Rock HOF - he's exactly the type of guy who should have been in by now for "Musical Excellence," a category that the HOF has been way too stingy about.

Ah wait, I misread that as Belew being mercurial.

Belew me away really

Tbh I think Belew has a pretty good reason to be irked by everything that’s happened with the band since 2014. How much is he going to factor in the documentary?

I agree. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest there would not have been a Crimson from 1981 to 1984 or 1994-2003 or whenever without Belew. Maybe the original plan of giving the band a different name would have been the right call after all? Anyway, I have no idea why the two fell out, since I thought they were friends. Maybe that was Belew's mistake? I also suspect Belew just didn't like playing KC songs written by other people, and maybe that lack of flexibility hurt his chances in the most recent/final lineup.

I’m not sure they’ve fallen out per se. They did during that last kerfuffle. But even then, Belew was talking about how he loved Fripp personally. Beyond what I imagine may have been a financial arrangement; I think part of what calmed Belew then was that Fripp kind of anointed him the 9th (or 10th) member in reserve, which gave him hope that he’d be back in at some point. Obviously that’s not the case anymore.

My sense is that Belew has never been fully resolved as to whether he is a solo artist or a Crimson guy.

In his book, Bruford identified this as a problem with the group.

...or with Belew in the group.

I like Belew a lot but I'll be perfectly frank: he was vitally important to the 80's incarnation (which I love) but I liked his input less and less after that. I think THRAK has great stuff on it but he's responsible for some of the worst things on the last two albums.

people who enjoyed Belew's tenure had many many years to enjoy it and see them live. People who didn't got a few years here without him. In all liklihood, Crimson as anyone knew it is now over for good. I'm sure there will be further offshoots in the future of different combinations of players (Belew, Mastoletto, Levin) that people will get to see and hear.

"Starless" from the final gig of the final tour, in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laKt80x0E4k

And posted this morning, two minutes of isolated Bruford & Wetton from Asbury Park '74:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nDJAru9_4

Listening to Pete Sinfield's Still. This is even more of a curio than the McDonald and Giles album, and it's no surprise he has never followed it up.
At first, I was put off by his singing, until I realized it's an unexpected bridge between the tweeness of Robin Gibb and the sarcasm of Howard Devoto (though not simultaneously). His attempts at country ("Will It Be You") and rock 'n' roll ("Wholefood Boogie") are attempts.
Still, I mean nonetheless, there are some very interesting dramatic ballad/production numbers here, this may be the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YcxrelCdpw

Did any ILXors see the KC documentary that premiered at SxSW? The "turn that fucking camera off" teaser trailer and what little I've read have me interested. The only review I've seen so far was at National Review, of all places.

Title track on Still is kinda funny - Greg Lake guests and his vocals are (obviously) so much better than Sinfields

Always loved the tune “Under the Sky” though the GG&F version is way better

reviews for the doc have been great across the board (I didn't see it yet, hope it gets distribution soon). I was disappointed to read initially that it's only 90 minutes long, and doesn't include many (any?) full song performances, but it's not like this last version of the band isn't well represented in that way.

I was disappointed to read initially that it's only 90 minutes long, and doesn't include many (any?) full song performances

I am the opposite of disappointed to learn this.

Yes, documentaries don't need to fill the role of clip compilations or concert movies.

I was wondering last night why Sinfield and McDonald, whose partnership predated Crimson, didn't continue to write together afterwards. They obviously esteemed each others' work enough to revisit it on their solo records ("Under the Sky" and "Birdman").

both of them were kind of semi-retired by that time; I actually thought Sinfield left the business entirely after Love Beach but apparently he collaborated on a #1 single by a pop band called Bucks Fizz? crazy that anyone would tab him at all for that kind of music.

https://filmmakermagazine.com/113724-toby-amies-king-crimson/#.Yjnpvy-cbUI

Just found this -- whets my appetite even more after a quick read.

Still poking my head into the later years of King Crimson and I picked up a CD copy of The Compact King Crimson the other day when I saw a copy at a local shop. What a weird little compilation! 8 of the 12 tracks are from the early 80's trilogy of albums (with a full 5 from Discipline alone!) and the remaining four are all from the debut. Just weird that nothing released between those albums is represented at all.

That's a great interview. Based on that I really want to see the movie, but I also think I'm gonna wait for the Blu-Ray and dive into as many extras as possible.

Sinfield wrote the lyrics for Celine Dion's "Think Twice"! Probably made him more money than his entire prog career, even with a sizeable publishing cut no doubt going to her management.

I happened across a 1978 interview with Wetton and Bruford which contained some fairly scathing commentary on Fripp:

Do you think that some of the bands you've worked with in the past have had a more conceptual outlook than UK? I'm thinking of Yes, Genesis and Crimson. I would imagine that Robert Fripp's ideas of what he's going into the studio to record are close to what he comes out with at the end of an album session.

JW: Robert? No, no way.

BB: No, you see there again there is this big misconception about him.

JW: He didn't go in with the concept of In the Court of the Crimson King. That was between Ian McDonald and Pete Sinfield.

BB: That had more to do with Foreigner than Fripp in many ways, because of McDonald. There was this conception that Robert did everything, which I have to scotch for you. There was something about his manner on stage which gave him a sort of autocratic feeling and I spend my life saying that he didn't necessarily do that much. He certainly didn't say a lot.

It was also a time when the axeman ruled generally in groups.

JW: Yes, the guitar was at a peak. He certainly didn't go into the studio with a concept. That's right out of the window, forget it.

I mean that does seem fairly obvious if you actually listen to how radically their sound changed from one album to the next. Fripp was arguably the least important guy on In the Court! When Wetton and Bruford joined the sound revolves around them. From the 80s on Belew did pretty much all the actual songwriting. Not a dig on Fripp but the dude doesn’t strike me as someone who could pull off a solo record without getting a lot of help (Frippertronic stuff aside)

ha, well yes see Exposure for proof of that theory

Although, to be fair, what "concept" there is to Exposure seems to be Fripp's entirely.

Also, Fripp has never been the one insisting or even suggesting he’s the most important person in the band. Which, FWIW, neither Wetton nor Bruford accuse him of in that interview.

I thought this was awesome. Fripp apparently was offering recorded messages recently (quite a few artists seemed to do that during the pandemic, probably as a way of making up the income lost from not touring), and here's what he did for one guy:

My son is a huge fan of King Crimson and Robert Fripp. He and his wife recently had their first child, my first grandchild, and I decided to buy one of these personal greeting videos that have become quite popular. I sent a few bullet points for Robert to record a message for my son and his wife to welcome their daughter and about a week later got a two minute video from Robert and it was fantastic. He made the greeting very personal, he played his 1959 Les Paul and gave a little bit of the history of that guitar including what albums he had used it on.

He ended by playing Happy Birthday to our granddaughter in a bit of a King Crimsonesque style on the Les Paul. My son was ecstatic, as was I. Robert came across as a very genuine person who cares about his fans.

when I got into KC it seemed to be common knowledge that Fripp was a dick but I realize now that he's just strange.

his dickishness is a put on from everything I've heard from people who have worked with him.

except belew

true but from everything I've gleaned about this, belew is kind of wrong. dude wanted more money, others in the band to be paid as sidemen and wanted to be the front man. that wasn't in the cards going forward.

Full story too long to tell right now but about 7 years ago I spent about a week with him as we were both working on a musical endeavor involving Toyah.

He was absolutely one of the sweetest, kindest, funniest, and outright strangest dudes I've ever met. The week ended with us getting wasted on margaritas and him telling my girlfriend the history of the Fripp family in England dating back to 1500 AD or so. One of my fondest memories.

thats amazing!

Wow!

Debating about whether to see the documentary in a theater on Monday (part of a film festival), or just wait until it's on a streaming service. Tbh my main concern is that my wife won't enjoy herself (since she has never heard KC, a band with famously few female fans).

everything I've read about this doc is that it's enjoyable for anyone, aand given that there actually isn't a huge amount of performance in it, I would hope that would make it easier to watch. I've sensed that a fair amount of it is about Bill Reiflin.

I saw him do a small solo show back in the late 90s, and he did a Q&A after. He was very funny, like it was almost close to a stand-up comic performance, not at all what I would have expected, very dry and British, but very, very funny.

My wife got me a Fripp recorded video for Christmas 2019, it's lovely. They're still available.

King Crimson sure don't sound like they are getting ready to break up on 'Absent Lovers'. That is an amazing live record. I'd say one of the big expectations is just how good Tony Levin's vocals sound with Belew on the record. They definitely could pull off that drony harmony live on those tracks. Interesting thing on the vocal lines is that they are some types like the rhythm guitar of the track, holding down single root notes while the guitars do the spider web riffs around the chords. It is definitely one of KC's best recordings.

I'm really curious about all the late period live records as King Crimson is definitely one of the rock bands that has LOTS of live records completed and released. There has to be at least 10 since they got back together in the 90s, not counting those get the show after the show type CD truck recordings.

Get Radical Action… It’s amazing. A live album (3CD set) with all the crowd noise removed and serious reworkings of the material. Essential, I think.

At least one poster was interested in seeing the top ten lists included in Pete Tomsett's Fifty Shades of Crimson. I'm typed out now so I'll comment later:

King Crimson Tracks

Fracture
Lizard
Starless
Sartori in Tangier
The Court of the Crimson King
B’boom (live 1994)
The Sailor’s Tale (live 2014)
Red
The Night Watch
Walking On Air

Fripp solo or collaboration tracks

20th Century Dreaming (Sylvian/Fripp)
Sometimes God Hides
Breathless
I Advance Masked (Fripp/Summers)
The Stars Below (Fayman/Fripp)
Invocation (League of Crafty Guitarists)
Exposure
Heavenly Music Corporation (Fripp/Eno)
1989
North Meadow (Giles Giles & Fripp)

Other Crimson members’ solo or collaboration tracks

Hawaii (McDonald)
Exiles (Cross with Wetton)
C’est La Vie (Lake)
Hell’s Bells (Bruford)
Wings in the Sunset (McDonald/Giles)
Pelican Pie (Haskell)
Pretty Pink Rose (Belew)
In the Dead of Night (UK including Wetton and Bruford)
One of These Days I’ll Get an Early Night (Camel including Collins)
A Part and Yet Apart (Bruford’s Earthworks)

Appearances on other artists’ tracks

Baby’s on Fire (Eno with Fripp and Wetton)
St. Elmo’s Fire (Eno with Fripp)
The Great Curve (Talking Heads with Belew)
‘Heroes’ (David Bowie with Fripp)
Kingdom Come (Bowie with Fripp)
I Don’t Remember (Peter Gabriel with Fripp and Levin)
Listen Now (Phil Manzanera with Collins)
The Last Three Minutes II (Ten Seconds with Fripp)
Firth of Fifth live (Steve Hackett with Wetton and McDonald)
Nightmare (Anthony Phillips with Mike Giles)