Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I just thought we were talking about solos, not improv specifically. Dude definitely isn't Django or Metheny when it comes to improvising "concise, well-crafted guitar melodies".

Although tbh I don't recall if the ones I mentioned were improvised or not. Acc to this, "Stairway" solo was also mostly improvised: https://www.guitarplayer.com/news/the-greatest-guitar-solos-of-all-time

Based on his live playing, I did just assume these were written out, though, and if he says otherwise, I'm not sure whether to believe him. I sort of like the doped-up rambling of some of the live stuff too, though.

What makes Zep's recorded output so great is that everything is so impeccably, perfectly arranged/played/produced, thought-out. That's what sets them apart from so many boring heavy blues rock bands of the '70s, and yeah, it's why that while some people no doubt love the epic improvised guitar/drum/organ solos of the live sets, I can't imagine anyone is listening to those live shows *for* those solos.

The line between writing and improvising a solo is murky when the soloist does multiple takes and/or punch-ins, as Page did.

What's the saying, composition is just very slow improvisation?

I've honestly never listened to any Zep outtakes. Are there any radically different versions of Page solos/takes? Or did he do multiple takes/punch-ins in pursuit of a set idea?

Bill Dixon said, "Composition is the assembling of musical materials into a new order; improvisation is the instantaneous realization of composition, without the benefit (or detriment) of being able to change or alter anything." He also said, "All music is improvised; you can't play the same thing the exact same way twice." That all works for me, to which I would add -- because what about samples? -- you can't play the same thing the same way, or in the same time/space, twice.

I like to imagine zeppelin trying to capture the stones shambolic rhythm on something like “under my thumb” . maybe “Dancing days” is the closest they came

Are any of the bonus tracks from the latest LZ remasters that good? I went through them and was thoroughly underwhelmed, to the point where they seemed to needlessly clutter up the discs. But if there's any I undervalued, I'll give them another listen.

Otherwise, Zeppelin is one of the few heavily bootlegged artists I like where I've never bothered to keep a copy of any of them even though I have six of their albums. To be fair, I've got DVD and How the West Was Won, both easily found for peanuts now, but I don't really feel the need to get anything else that's unofficial.

The best bonus tracks by far are on the Coda set (though it's kind of annoying, since it's 3 discs that could easily fit on 2): "Friends" and "Four Sticks" recorded with an orchestra in India; a couple of super-early studio things from '68; "Hey Hey What Can I Do"; and a couple of rough mixes that are not-uninteresting.

I can't imagine anyone is listening to those live shows *for* those solos.

Lot of people in the comments on the SRTS version of "Dazed and Confused" listening for the solos:

In my opinion - it was the best live perfomance of Jimmy Page. Absolutely out of this world. Like he was possesed by some cosmic force

best showcase for rock's wizard Jimmy Page. He even said magic was the fifth element of Zeppelin. There it is on display.

Only Zeppelin could make the solo of a song into a completely different song with its own solo that evolves into a solo with a violen string and then eventually comes back into the original songs solo. I wanna see a band today do that.

Jimmy Page, words cannot express what your guitar playing (and Zeppelin) means to my life. Between official and unofficial bootleg albums I've probably listened to nearly every note that came out of your guitar with Zeppelin. Your music is, and will always be sacred to me.

I've watched this video around 700 times and I am finally now ready to leave my comment. Paige first and foremost puts the greatest guitar performance ever filmed. His creativity is so far ahead of everyone else, its like comparing a Ferrari to a hitchhiker. The overall group performance is absolutely mind blowing. A six minute song originally, is generated into a 28 + minutes of rock mastery. People say the Beatles are the best rock and roll band ever. So do you think the Beatles could play this? Not a chance.

Best guitar solo ever performed at any time by anyone. Highlights : 17:36 and 23:47 Flabbergasting! This man was a fire. The Magician, the Alchemist.

I actually do sometimes enjoy listening to them randomly going from heavy blues rock to a 50s pop tune to seven minutes of solo bowed guitar noise to rubato guitar/voice improv to messy shredding to Holst back to the song but more as a sort of surreal pomo collage. (Versions from 2003 DVD/How the West Was Won better than this.) I wouldn't actually want to hear him play over "Blue Bossa" or whatever. Hendrix otoh obviously had better idiomatic improv chops.

I like to imagine zeppelin trying to capture the stones shambolic rhythm on something like “under my thumb” . maybe “Dancing days” is the closest they came

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but I feel "Ozone Baby" lines up pretty well with Some Girls ->> era Stones (albeit with beefier production).

I wonder if even Hendrix's justifiably vaunted skills would be less tolerable if they were always teamed with 30 minute drum solos and jazz odyssey bass explorations. But man, "a six minute song ... generated into 28 + minutes of rock mastery" seems like the opposite of mastery. Zep's power is taking all those ideas and wankery and distilling it down to a tight 6 minutes! Imo, of course. Reminds me of a photographer I know who does a lot of concert shoots. He's picking and choosing what shots to take while many of his younger peers are just click, click, clicking away ... As he said to me, if you're taking 1000 pictures of a concert, you're not taking pictures, you're making a movie.

One of the many things I love about LZ is that they were essentially peerless, in the literal sense. They just never really crossed paths with anyone, not even other rock stars. I wonder if there is even a single contemporaneous shot of Plant with, say, Mick Jagger.

Not sure about Jagger but it's not that hard with others, is it?

With Rod Stewart: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4e/b6/5f/4eb65f1b7169b63eec0613e303427c8b.jpg

Bad Company: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ymGTZ6P5zLc/hqdefault.jpg

Watching Jethro Tull: https://www.baltimoremagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/jb-laurelpop69-0.jpg

Page on hanging out with Lou Reed and seeing the VU: https://cosmicmagazine.com.au/news/jimmy-page-recalls-spending-time-with-the-velvet-underground-and-andy-warhol-in-new-interview/

Zep frequently crossed paths with the Who (inevitably, I suppose, not least because Zep originally was Entwistle and Moon’s idea to join up with Page, and Moon came up with the name). Zep opened for them once in 1969, Page played on a solo Daltrey b-side in 1973, and Bonham sat next to Moon’s kit during the recording of “Won’t Get Fooled Again.” There’s also that footage from 1977 of Bonham and Moon at an LA Zep show.

Plus wasn't it Some Girls that included a song the Stones recorded with Page on a recent(ish) deluxe reissue?

^^Goat's Head Soup, and--as Soto would certainly tell you--Page also pops up on Dirty Work, playing lead on "One Hit (To The Body)".

i guess what i hear in zeppelin is a sort of middle way. i mean, look at the points of reference here! bill dixon? django reinhart? yeah, page and zep lack the instrumental prowess of either. it's like, you know, trying to compare the '72 dead to miles davis' sets opening for them in '70 (a huge inspiration and influence on their sound). i have in the past described the '72 improvising dead as "shitty miles davis", but i don't mean it as an insult. zep's idiom is a _lot_ closer to the dead than it is to bill dixon. it's their _lack_ of concision that allowed them to really stretch out, their willingness to be interminably shitty (and their fans' toleration of same) that has led to their accomplishing greater things than many of their "classic rock" contemporaries. if we're gonna make any comparison, you know, how about the live mahavishnu orchestra? they have as much deedly-deedly-deedly as zep does!

Lot of people in the comments on the SRTS version of "Dazed and Confused" listening for the solos:
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, June 4, 2022 12:21 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

loved this fun little annotation

MrMysteriosguy
1 year ago (edited)
0:00 - Intro
4:09 - Faster tempo change
6:16 - Going To San Francisco
8:48 - Bow Solo Begins
11:35 - Fantasy Sequence
15:58 - High tempo guitar solo
18:18 - Funk Jam
20:49 - Second fast guitar solo/improv
22:58 - Heavier breakdown/Mars Bringer Of War
24:26 - Breakdown from the original studio version
25:55 - Ending solo
28:32 - Bonham drum solo closer

it's their _lack_ of concision that allowed them to really stretch out, their willingness to be interminably shitty (and their fans' toleration of same) that has led to their accomplishing greater things than many of their "classic rock" contemporaries.

I think one problem with Zep is that they didn’t have the time to seriously jell as a stretching-out live unit. The Who and the Dead had a few heavy-touring years on Zep, and while there are certainly some gloriously expansive live Zep moments — the Supershow D&C is my favorite Zeppelin moment ever — they didn’t have those years under their belts that give so many bands a sixth sense of “Oh, we’re going there? Got it” in extended live situations.

Bah da buh da buh dah buh
Ba da ba da ba da ba

ftr Keith Richards was NOT a fan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQePSwNkvbA

Damn transcribed that wrong

Zep vs Stones poll

Townshend didn't like Zeppelin either: “I don't like a single thing that they have done, I hate the fact that I'm ever even slightly compared to them.” He continued, through gritted teeth and an angered perspective: “I just never ever liked them."

Sore loser

Not really. I made this point on another thread, but the Who and Zep were such different animals, and I agree with Townshend in not understanding why the two bands are always compared. There is nothing in Zep’s oeuvre remotely equivalent to “Happy Jack”; there is nothing in the Who’s catalog that bears the the slightest resemblance to “Since I’ve Been Loving You.”

The Who were quirky and awkward; Zep were the antithesis of quirky and awkward.

Ugh

And while Pete may be jealous of Zep’s commercial success — which was indeed vastly greater than the Who’s — it was Page who (ALLEGEDLY) faked a back injury to get out of opening for the Who in 2000 (when he was touring with the Black Crowes).

Now I want to hear 1970 Zep perform an eight-minute plodding blues shuffle about furry donkeys.

We’re gonna grove is so good, not sure there’s a need for anything else

I like to imagine zeppelin trying to capture the stones shambolic rhythm on something like “under my thumb” . maybe “Dancing days” is the closest they came

misty mountain hop

Hearing stories about Jimmy Miller teaching Watts to play this part or playing that part himself makes me think the Stones were a bit of a shambles too

For whatever reason, Watts sometimes had trouble dealing with phrasing that was on an off-beat. Here it takes him a solid two minutes to find the one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGk3LeM56E

Townshend didn't like Zeppelin either: “I don't like a single thing that they have done, I hate the fact that I'm ever even slightly compared to them.” He continued, through gritted teeth and an angered perspective: “I just never ever liked them."

― Halfway there but for you

you think he hates zep, you should hear how he feels about roger daltrey

Was at a bar last night and either because it was a slow night or the end of a long night, the bartender was getting a little goofy with the music selection. Deltron to Smiths to Joe Walsh to Beastie Boys to Misfits to Gary Numan to the Who. Out of nowhere he leans over to my buddy and I and says "OK, ready for a challenge?" We say sure. He says "if either of you can guess the next song, you get a pint on me." We say sounds good, hit it! He starts the track and it's just a drum groove. But after a second we both go "well, it's John Bonham ..." and I add "... from 'Coda.'" And the guy just lights up! "'Bonzo's Montreux'! You're the first ones to get it in the three years I've been working here." He takes out two pint glasses. "What'll you have?"

kind of stunned this isn’t a story from 1995.

You can tell it was contemporary because the bartender was wearing a Britney Spears shirt.

Wait idgi what screams "1995" about that story?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv89klR8u8Q

“It’s quite an amazing feeling to be awake in the daytime”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g8Dq45nZOI

This homemade doc is a little all over the place but still enjoyable

Speaking of King Crimson, whatever happened to the official LZ doc?

One thing this post breakup docu series is that jimmy and Robert should have retired when LZ ended

Ugh … one thing it makes clear

Townshend didn't like Zeppelin either: “I don't like a single thing that they have done, I hate the fact that I'm ever even slightly compared to them.” He continued, through gritted teeth and an angered perspective: “I just never ever liked them."

I remember he had similar things to say about The Jam.

What series?

Jcm on YouTube