Post a controversial music opinion

His body leaves me cold

I used to have this awful "History of rock n roll" book that i bought for $3 at the supermarket, it had a section called "legends" which profiled several artists including Bowie. It said he had no talent and couldn't sing, attributed his success to a "well timed revelation that he was gay" and even took a cheap shot at his sax playing. But it went on to say that none of this mattered because "he had an indefinable something else". Basically they made him out to be the archetype of a rock star whose music is not as important as "the other stuff", this slightly pathetic figure who had the right look and attitude but couldn't write a song to back it up and that's a hypothesis looking for evidence if they can't find a better fit than Bowie.

Bowie had a lot of good ideas, decent taste in collaborators, and a great eye for things worth stealing, but he botched the execution about eight and a half times out of ten. There's a whole great album spread across Low, Heroes and Lodger, and the two live albums from that era are astonishing, but Blackstar was his first great record in 35 years; anybody who reps harder than "yeah, OK, I guess" for anything he did between Let's Dance and Blackstar is delusional.

decent taste in collaborators,

anybody who reps harder than "yeah, OK, I guess" for anything he did between Let's Dance and Blackstar is delusional.

I quite like Reeves Gabrels, Outside and Earthling

unperson I am of the entirely correct opinion that Outside is, discretely, the best album in Bowie's discography; "discretely" meaning removed from the zeitgeist-y impact of his 70s albums or the eulogistic qualities of Blackstar, Outside is a masterwork

Basically they made him out to be the archetype of a rock star whose music is not as important as "the other stuff"

Oh, I thought of a good one! The Grateful Dead.

That's It For The Other Stuff

unperson I am of the entirely correct opinion that Outside is, discretely, the best album in Bowie's discography; "discretely" meaning removed from the zeitgeist-y impact of his 70s albums or the eulogistic qualities of Blackstar, Outside is a masterwork

I've tried with it a few times. All I hear is "I say, Brian, have you heard this Trent Reznor fellow? He's quite good, isn't he? Let's try some of that, but I still want to do some of the dramatic crooner-in-the-spotlight stuff, too."

even took a cheap shot at his sax playing

i like bowie but tbf his sax playing is really awful

I like the sound of it, especially half-buried in the mix. He probably doesn't play more than three drawn-out notes on "TVC 15", but they're the right notes. And I don't know if it's Bowie or one of the other sax players, but the last chorus of "Time", when the flute and sax suddenly break in, is deeply emotive to me.

frankly the industrial/nin influence on outside is wildly overstated and pretty much everyone realizes it when they actually listen to it

it would be cooler if it lived up to that though

as it is i can't think of another record that sounds like outside so i disagree

I don't hear NIN much in Outside. Listeners may not like it, but it doesn't sound like much else in 1995: mutant cabaret Scott Walker with Pixies guitar squalls.

Bowie's sax parts are almost always what the songs need. The bleats and burps on most of Diamond Dogs, the yearning squeal in "TVC 15," the freestyle solo in "Neukoln," the way it crashes against Nile Rodgers' rhythm track in "Jump They Say."

i'll grant that the parts he comes up with & the way they fit into the songs are often very good - which i'm sure is due in no small part to the fact that he surely knows his playing is bad. it always sounds like he's struggling mightily and never quite able to get it to do what he wants it to do imo

My personal biggest creative affront in Bowie’s “good artists steal” mandate wasn’t how he took inspiration from NIN and Walker in the 90s, it was his completely inept attempts at Frank Black “literate and unhinged” lyrical bent. “Baby Universal” is the prime example, I’ve never heard Bowie whiff a lyric/delivery as bad as the “cause you’re my roommate from Hell” and “I’m the baby now” moments

If Gabrels was apeing Santiago then he was doing just fine at it

Bowie’s sax sucks on Diamond Dogs (ruins the album, even, for me) but he’s fine on other tracks/albums

He whiffs even worse on Tonight and half of NLMD.

even took a cheap shot at his sax playing

i like bowie but tbf his sax playing is really awful

― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Friday, June 24, 2022 9:58 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Come on, it's like saying Elvis was a lousy guitar player. That's judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

My main problem with Bowie is that my first real introduction to him was the "Changesbowie" 1990 comp, and nothing I've heard since has ever topped it. I find his albums frustratingly uneven (with the notable exception of "Diamond Dogs").

xp whos judging bowie by his sax playing? i said i like him!

It's okay! Most artists with Bowie's long oeuvre have many frustratingly uneven albums.

Yeah, its not surprising, especially for an artist as creatively restless as Bowie. I still think he's great, I just rarely listen to any of his albums straight through.

y'know why that is, nate?

because cool image ≠ cool music

I think he's only recently become so iconic, at least in the US. He had those couple of big hits in the US circa "Lets Dance", but he was never as mainstream as say, Phil Collins.

My main problem with Bowie is that my first real introduction to him was the "Changesbowie" 1990 comp, and nothing I've heard since has ever topped it. I find his albums frustratingly uneven (with the notable exception of "Diamond Dogs").

― o. nate, Friday, June 24, 2022 2:10 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

The "Fame '90" appreciator has logged on

Not saying its perfect. Just that as a compact presentation of his strengths, its hard to beat. Maybe there's a better comp now.

The 3CD Nothing Has Changed is very good. The running order is reverse chronological — it starts with "Sue" and ends with "Liza Jane" from Davie Jones and the King Bees, but it's got pretty much everything.

My first entry point was Changesbowie, which is fine, then Hunky Dory, which I still think is perfect.

His sax playing on A New Career In A New Town is also perfect.

xps

Yeah, I didn't know any of his songs besides 'Space Oddity' until i bought the records. For an artist of his stature, he was seldom played on the radio etc here until recently, you saw him a lot more than you actually heard him. Not hearing him alongside Phil Collins songs was something that probably set him apart from his peers, as well as being the one who sets fire to things.

xp whos judging bowie by his sax playing?

the author(s) of a shitty pocket history of rock, tbc

Yeah, David Bowie always sounded a bit out of place on American radio. Not sure why. Someone like Phil Collins fit right in. I think maybe because there's not really any blues in Bowie's music, and blues is so central to American music.

I think he's only recently become so iconic, at least in the US

He was iconic in the UK from 1972 onwards, you're only half a century late over there.

Bowie's catalogue is full of transcendent moments which trick me into thinking I like the records more than I actually do

could probably say the same of Prince actually

Berlin Bowie is great of course, though Low strikes me as the only one that's great back to front. those long coked out ballads on Station to Station are such a drag.

I do think Ziggy is a classic (though Numan's Tubeway Army debut hits a lot of the same buttons for me), and Blackstar is, I think, a masterpiece

will try 1. Outside soon

@ frogbs

In all honestly I think you'll love it but a caution that it is a long album that unfolds so make it an intentional listen and it's not-at-all "backloaded" but some shit happens toward the end that is just, well, you'll love it I think

I recommend Lodger, the crunchiest and least perfect of the trilogy but the one with the best pop songs -- his attempt to make a Bowiefied pop album

Take out the three inessential covers and I'd call Heathen his best post-70s album.

Agree there’z too much cocaine ballads but “Stay” from Station to Station is incredible.

Maybe to like Bowie you have to love Bowie, by which I mean his charisma is a lot of the music’s appeal whereas casual listeners aren’t as thrilled by it.

I recommend Lodger, the crunchiest and least perfect of the trilogy but the one with the best pop songs -- his attempt to make a Bowiefied pop album

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 24, 2022 1:46 PM

second.

Yeah Bowie is one of those artists I love that I have a hard time getting any of my friends to get into. I hadn’t considered the lack of blues in his music as an angle to why he sounds so alien.

Maybe not a controversial opinion but Blackstar is my favorite Bowie record by a long shot.

That’s the one I’d recommend.

In all honestly I think you'll love it but a caution that it is a long album that unfolds so make it an intentional listen and it's not-at-all "backloaded" but some shit happens toward the end that is just, well, you'll love it I think

― flamboyant goon tie included, Friday, June 24, 2022 3:22 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I recommend Lodger, the crunchiest and least perfect of the trilogy but the one with the best pop songs -- his attempt to make a Bowiefied pop album

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 24, 2022 3:46 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

alrighty, these two are next

Agree there’z too much cocaine ballads but “Stay” from Station to Station is incredible.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Friday, June 24, 2022 4:21 PM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

agreed though for me it's all about the outro in the second half. one thing I do love about him is he knew when to stay quiet

I think maybe because there's not really any blues in Bowie's music

I hadn’t considered the lack of blues in his music as an angle to why he sounds so alien.

wait, what??

Ok relistening to Blackstar and holy fuck what a great sounding album. I feel so satisfied this is his farewell album, made the news of his death very bittersweet.

moka otm

(tho not v controversial lol)

Deflatormouse; not saying I agree, I was rather pondering on o.nate’s view. It made me relisten and I’m not hearing the “lack of blues”, at least not in Blackstar lol.

"lack of blues" one of the ambient tracks from heroes iirc

I remember Bowie being on top 40 / MTV in the early 80s - China Girl, Let's Dance, the Jagger duet. The Schilling "Major Tom" raised a brief blip of interest in "Space Oddity" but only to music nerds.

But it wasn't till a few years later that the "classic rock" format brought his 70s material to people my age. If the two trends had overlapped more - if you heard, say, "Ziggy Stardust" alongside "Modern Love," perhaps he'd have had an even bigger career boost than the one he got.

Re: blues – I’m no Bowie scholar, but isn’t Let’s Dance supposed to be his big R&B move? (The songs don’t push those particular buttons for me, but…)