Major 'informal' albums

Surely a kind of offhanded shruggy indolence is one of VH's trademarks?

― Halfway there but for you, Monday, July 18, 2022 2:07 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think VH are more an example of a band that is less assertive or protective of their artistic vision and more willing to concede all that to the wishes of the label or producer, especially early on. Maybe Roth is the exception, but Roth's idea of Van Halen doesn't really respect "material" as anything more than a vehicle for the band's personality or performance- so Diver Down, covers of R&B standards conform to Roth's vision anyhow.

Neu! 2 has a very “fuck around and find out” vibe for me, despite its canon status

Especially in the wake of Fair Warning, which was a very conceptually unified album.

And one of their strongest. Probably the one I'd rate second after their debut, which is one of the best debut albums ever.

Can we add Amnesiac to the "informal" pile? It comes across mostly as Kid A Part Deux. The material does come off great live, though.

Makes sense, given that they were recorded in the same sessions.

I wasn't counting Amnesiac (and others) because of them being recorded at the same time as a previous album, so the mental idea of them being second helpings is sort of unavoidable (my own specification is cruel, no doubt) (not that I don't think Amnesiac stands up on its own, mind). Also I generally just think TKOL is more the sort of record I mean. More a 'this is where we're all at now, by the way' sort of record.

still not sure I totally get the thread but can an argument be made for REM’s new adventures as opposed to Up? The former was recorded all over the place, on the road, etc, seems like it kind of formed out of air. Up was like a conscious “we’re in the studio - reinventing ourselves - being arty - ok computer rulez” kind of thing

My reason for Up feeling like it *could* have counted, more than Hi-fI, is that said 'reinvention' feels a lot more temporary, more like what they've learned from doing the more offbeat Up tracks is going to form a more songful and less vaporous follow-up album, which is what happened. Plus Hi-Fi being a relative US bomb probably took some pressure off them to provide Warners with too many single prospects (that much they seem quite ready to admit). The problem with Bill's exit though is that the album's loose sound is informed by his exit, and they were barely holding together at that point (although this emphasises the album's 'learning process' feel), so if not a MS its still high stakes.

I love the upthread case for It's Hard! I liked when By Numbers cropped up too - I quite feel that one as well despite the self-deprecating title almost offsetting it all. Maybe not very eclectic but e.g. Squeeze Box (lead single no less) and Blue Red and Grey stand out for being offhand.

Does the need for this to be a "major" release disqualify contractual obligation records, like several that have already been mentioned, or Islands by the Band?

Wouldn't say so, unless they're outtakes albums or just taking the piss (and also cover albums etc as mentioned).

I've always considered Circle of Love by the Steve Miller Band to be this type of record. Coming a few years after the huge success of a pair of albums (recorded simultaneously, I think) it doesn't attempt to recreate them but offers up some low-key almost country-ish tracks ("Heart Like a Wheel", "Get On Home") before settling into the epic all-of-side-two space blues jam "Macho City", which really threw people at the time.

As posted by Grisso/McCain on the Big Star thread, more evidence that Radio City def. pertains, at least in a key sector:
https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_classic_big_star_songs_that_arent_big_star_but_a_studio_project_du

Big Star recorded everything in their arsenal for Radio City, but it wasn’t enough for a full LP, so the Dolby Fuckers tracks were added to round out the record. The only information on the album related to the Chilton-led project is this credit: “Danny Jones and Richard Rosebrough played too.”

The British Invasion-sounding “She’s a Mover” is probably the oldest track on Radio City, possibly dating as far back as mid-to-late 1972. The looseness of the evening it was captured in is preserved in the recording, which ends with a jam. The odd feedback sounds came from waving a pair of headphones over a microphone. Andy Hummel later overdubbed a bass part, so he’s on the final version. Big Star took a stab at the song, but their rendering was shelved, as it was felt it didn’t have the spirit of the Dolby Fuckers’ take.

Never heard the full SMB album but "Macho City" is perfection. Love how increasingly, patiently empty it gets until there's nothing at all.

Oops, meant to post these here, not on Big Star thread:

of course, Third/Sister Lovers is all over the place, and Complete Third omg duhhh, but even/especially that is *going* all over the place, with own sort of momentum.

― dow, Monday, July 18, 2022 5:22 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Oh, speaking of Stones as packrats, try Metamorphosis.

― dow, Monday, July 18, 2022

Oh yeah I did hear Circle of Love this week and I can definitely see it fitting. I don't know enough about their history in truth so the jump from 1977-81 feels like it could be significant (even then their 77 album is a companion to their 76 one) but that doesn't change the fact its three ditties, a (admittedly very nice) longer pop song and then all of Macho City, less than half (less than quarter?) of which is the actual song bit.

Not sure it counts since its a collab album technically but Will The Circle Be Unbroken feels like it hits some of the qualifiers here.

I think Parade might qualify here - it’s the breeziest and most insouciant sounding album of his big 80s run; he’s already made the post-PR left turn and has the confidence to mess around without worrying about making a Big Statement

Nothing really sounds overly-laborious and is kind of a good starting point to hear the confidence in his own minimalism-as-virtue ethos

Also I've been thinking how Mike Oldfield might fit and although he has too many albums, and therefore a lot of potential candidates (and a lot of ones that are easy to rule out too, for being too 'themed'), I've decided on him having at least one, 1991's Heaven's Open, if not at least two.

It's "just" an album by Mike Oldfield in some ways, even though none of it is him doing what he does best or what fans want most of him. It all feels quite slapdash and noodley - in order, "Make Make" is flimsy adult dance-pop with amusing midi production, "No Dream" is a moody slowie that by turns sounds like Peter Gabriel and Chris Rea but never meaningfully, "Mr. Shame" is like the mid-point between the earlier two songs, "Gimme Back" sees him go fully pop-reggae, "Heaven's Open" is folk-rock-ish pop and then the big instrumental 'epic' - "Music from the Balcony" - is more of an aimless, incoherent collage that always changes its shape completely and just feels like fucking around (although I do enjoy it a fair bit).

The closing 'fuck off' to Branson aside, I don't know how far along he was with his Virgin squabbles/planning to sign with Warner/already writing Tubular Bells II when recording this one. There is the definite feel of just quickly throwing an album together to get the contract finished, but strangely he does this by doing half pop (in the manner of Virgin-pleasing Earth Moving) and half prog (like Anarok) - except Anarok was him deliberately f'ing over Virgin for Earth Moving's song focus and largely electronic sound, so strange for him to move back there. Does this interest only me? Almost certainly.

And as for classic era Oldfield, what about Platinum?

Again the side-long epic there - the four parts of "Platinum" itself - are him friskily messing around ('Airborne' parpy synth music, 'Platinum' disco rock, 'Charleston' a semi-self-explanatory mix of disco and swing, North Star a Philip Glass tribute). Then side two is his little ambient wind chimes piece (Woodhenge), a (wonderful) love song sung in a Residents/Cheap at Half the Price-ish pitched voice (Sally), his 'parody' of punk (Punkadiddle) and then a Gerswhin cover (I Got Rhythm). All in all a big, lighthearted retreat not from the double-length Incantations but his albums before that too, while still being a 'major' Mike album without a specific concept/gimmick/theme/etc.

Amarok* that should be! I'm typoing everywhere today

Amarok feels like The Orbs Pomme Fritz to me - one of those records that’s designed to come off slapdash and tossed off but was in reality intensively labored over

Oldfield had been counting down his obligations to Branson for years; even the title Heaven's Open is a reference to getting out of his contract, like Gentle Giant's Free Hand. Also, Branson had been asking him for a "sequel" to Tubular Bells for a long time, so making that the first release on his new label was a definite "gesture" as well.
Oldfield's relationship to pop confuses me; he's said he only started writing songs at Branson's behest, but he's returned to songs once in a while in his post-Virgin career.
As for Platinum (or, as it was called over here, Airborne with "Guilty" and "Into Wonderland" added), it is a little offhand compared to the four previous records, but it's also a big turn into recording with session musicians, "going disco", covering Glass and Gershwin. I'm not sure it's any more casual than his subsequent records of the 80s.

I mean Platinum was Oldfield saying "this is how my albums are going to be for awhile".

Amarok feels like The Orbs Pomme Fritz to me - one of those records that’s designed to come off slapdash and tossed off but was in reality intensively labored over

If so, the album's reputation as a MS probably suggests the latter is more apparent than maybe was Oldfield's attention.

I'm not sure it's any more casual than his subsequent records of the 80s.

I was thinking this, and I was sort of ruling them out on probably flimsy ground - namely the ongoing conceptual Taurus stuff and the more Statement-y (to me anyway) feel of a "Crises". But no there probably isn't much difference. Good point about the change re:lots of sessions musicians too.

Sam Cooke’s Night Beat, if it hasn’t been mentioned already.

Appealing take on the Oldfield, thanks---reminds me that one of The Clash (think it was Jones) initially told Creem that they were trying to hasten end of contract by putting so much stuff on Sandisita!: 3 LPs might help, though he said that 2-record London Calling had gotten counted by the label as one album only. However it came about, loose-jointz Sandinista! seems right enough for this loose-y thread.
Also, speaking of xpost "mixed bags" like The Great Lost Kinks Album and Stones' Metamorphosis, leave us not forget 1960s US Beatles cobblers, esp. Beatles '65, Yesterday and Today, Hey Jude, and my fave rave, Beatles IV. Flowers was another such Stones collection.

Sandinista! would be ideal if, coming peak moment of critical acclaim, it wasn't nearly as high stakes (should start abbreviating that to HS) and, pressingly, 144 minutes long. They were gleefully pressing their off-kilter B-sides button throughout those sessions tho ofc.

I think of Combat Rock as a scaled down Sandinista! - the truly atmospheric/indescribable/avant-ish stuff in this deal being "Sean Flynn" and "Death Is a Star".

Re:mixed bags maybe there's fun in deciding which of them would fit the criteria of the list if they had been completely new, full promotion albums and not outtake comps of old stuff. A parallel world where Dead Letter Office is a wobble on R.E.M.'s gradual rise to success. "Ages of You" a single etc. Would probably mean delaying Document onward by half a year or so. Stamp on a butterfly etc.

Prince's Black album and N.E.W.S. fits the op

Oh speaking of Beatles, and and thread-appropriate,original, officially "non-cobbled," but still loose-rolling across the map: what about The Magical Mystery Tour soundtrack, or has that been mentioned?

Good comment on Combat Rock btw

Yesterday and Today got a flurry of publicity (and collector appeal, to this day) because the "butcher cover," but don't know how much of that was part of a promotion campaign---the Beatles pretty much provided their own publicity, regardless of the release, so that was the main reason for all those releases: which, for (almost?) any other artist, would have resulted in flooding the market back then

I mean, Capitol and EMI bought ads and stuff, but soon saw that just about any Beatles record was going to at least do pretty well (although I'm sure there were oh noes, it didn't stay at No. 1 for X weeks like etc. did)

So with Beatles, commercial distinction between major and minor release seems not to have been as clearly defined as with other artists, is my impression, anyway.

what about The Magical Mystery Tour soundtrack, or has that been mentioned?

Numerous EPs (of original material) I guess factor far more into the gist of the discussion because that's what a lot of major rock artists use/used the EP for. Even then, Magical Mystery Tour is compromised because its a soundtrack, and as much as the film is obviously secondary to the songs it (the artwork) still won't let you forget its a soundtrack. I like it as a suggestion anyway - especially given how rapidly the Beatles jumble 'Event' singles and 'informal' single releases for the next two years.

I mean, Capitol and EMI bought ads and stuff, but soon saw that just about any Beatles record was going to at least do pretty well (although I'm sure there were oh noes, it didn't stay at No. 1 for X weeks like etc. did)

It gives me great dissonance, given how the Beatles' evolution is canonised now, to think of US fans presumably having treated Yesterday and Today like one of those 'next steps'. There's several major US acts who famously discussed how Rubber Soul changed everything for them, and there's endless prose on how Revolver's impact on music included its impact in the States - so why no mentions of Y&M?

Good comment on Combat Rock btw

Up there with Synchronicity and No Parlez as one of the great 'the singles don't sound like the rest of it' early 80s albums for me!

Re:mixed bags maybe there's fun in deciding which of them would fit the criteria of the list if they had been completely new, full promotion albums and not outtake comps of old stuff.

Where does Tattoo You fall along this continuum? A "new Rolling Stones album" that's all stuff they'd halfway finished at one point or another in the 70s, pulled off the shelf and finally finished.

Where does Tattoo You fall along this continuum? A "new Rolling Stones album" that's all stuff they'd halfway finished at one point or another in the 70s, pulled off the shelf and finally finished.

Imo disqualified from the main criteria for precisely those reasons, very little of it is a new project. But as you say its still a major Stones album with proper singles and everything, and although its status as mostly older stuff was no secret, nor do I believe it played into its promotion at all (which I suppose it wouldn't, in order to keep it a Proper Stones album) (the other, probably stronger reason I wouldn't count it is that, remarkably but helpfully for the album itself, it doesn't sound cobbled together. It has the eclectic but sturdy, sequenced coherence of a Some Girls and Emotional Rescue rather than the whatever goes here's-a-few-odd-things-and-the-odd-future-classic-or-two Black and Blue)

Now that TY has come up though, I'd love Black and Blue even more if it had Slave and Worried About You on it. I'm really quite fond of that period.

It's mad to me that Weller doesn't seem to have an album that fits. All his more multifarious albums are all a bit too MS - 22 Dreams, Wake Up the Nation et al. regardless of them containing sound collages with Kevin Shields or Robert Wyatt etc. Even the latest, Fat Pop, juggles being 'yeah I've had a bit of fun in lockdown' (informal) with 'these are all meant to be like singles, 3 minutes or so' (concept).

What about---in the face of Great Expectations especially---Led Zeppelin III, or I guess it may be just III? Whatever, they were that way about titles too, following this expensively packaged curveball with the one that publication had to buy special rune type to accurately represent the title of (but the music on that one was much, much more what the suits and the t-shirts wanted).

that publications

t gives me great dissonance, given how the Beatles' evolution is canonised now, to think of US fans presumably having treated Yesterday and Today like one of those 'next steps'. There's several major US acts who famously discussed how Rubber Soul changed everything for them, and there's endless prose on how Revolver's impact on music included its impact in the States - so why no mentions of Y&M?

As I coincidentally mentioned today on the Revolver Poll thread, re tracks that were kept off the US version of that for Yesterday and Today (along with ones from the UK versions of Help! and Rubber Soul), I dug the result for its "raw, collage-y" effect, kinda like twisting the radio or TV dial, but always getting ace Beatles across the years (not that many years so far, but the changes could be heard). Likewise Beatles 65 and Hey Jude, but Beatles VII had more stylistic continuity, sounded like to me--melding the mellow and the screamers---and it was my favorite---at parties, I'd play it between Never Mind The Bollocks and In The City

"Raw, collage-y": not a million miles from original cover

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/The_Beatles_-_Butcher_Cover.jpg

Nilsson’s “Pussycats”

Hosono's Philharmony is one of these - all his actual songs were going to YMO, so most of it is him messing about on his sampler. the songs that did make it are amazing of course and thats why it's become one of his most famous albums

Cluster's Curiosum may fit as well. it's such a weird & subtle record. I'd believe it if they said it was made in a day

Teenage Fanclub's The King?

Will Oldham, mentioned above, is an example of someone who almost only does “informal” albums. See also Guided by Voices.

Pete Townshend - Who Came First

Paul Weller "Studio 150“

Nice suggestions all, but Studio 150 is covers, The King didn't have full promo, Pussy Cats has the major marketing novelty of Lennon (the cover is the closest an official solo, non-collab album can get to seeming like an official collab album). III I personally discounted somewhere in the thread precisely because of how HS it was - even though it would totally fit had it come much later, I think. That's why I think of Zep have one its In Through the Out Door - maybe the 3 1/2 years away and it being a big comeback compromises matters though? But it definitely has the feel and playful jammy/genre-dabbles etc. of one, I think.

I can see Who Came First a fair bit. Solo albums are murky waters for the criterion but yeah.

If it wasn't their second album - and also probably their best-loved - Shazam!

"Message from the Country" is more informal. "Shazam" is anything but.

They didn't have much new material for Shazam - well any, apart from "Beautiful Danger" - so they looked to their stage act for relevant covers to do, and "Cherry Blossom Clinic" again. Just as well that all those covers are really good.

DAUGHTER

I think it's a real Diver Down moment for them, in other words

Who Came First was only released because Who fans were seeking out private-press Meher Baba tribute records that contained some of those Townshend songs. Decca thought they were losing out on potential sales, and proposed to release all the songs (plus a couple of non-Townshend things) on one LP. Even after it came out, though, Townshend was quoted as saying he doesn't think he ever really made a solo record, and that Quadrophenia was, in essence, a solo record. So yeah, definitely informal, eclectic, and low-stakes, but it could be argued that it wasn't conceived of, nor approached, as an album.