King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

bruford says that looking at each other smiley era of KC was joyous and not doomy

Belew is really a remarkable imitator - on the Gizmodrome live album he mimics Stings voice better than Sting probably could these days. Plus his spot on Dylan impression on “Flakes”

Most insane Belew trivia I learned is that he provides the main "sax" hook on "You Can Call Me Al."

(or at least some of the horns. this was the era of fake horns and real horns hanging out together on albums.)

Yeah I discovered that a few years ago, blew my mind a little too.

A friend of mine who I introduced to Crimson and Talking Heads back in high school just played percussion in Belew’s band with Jerry Harrison covering Remain in Light!

lmao i thought there were synth horns mixed in there but i had no idea it was belew playing them via guitar synth

The documentary is getting two more screenings at Metrograph in NY - the director will appear at both and Tony Levin will do a Q&A with him on Tuesday, December 6th at 7:00pm. FYI it’s not a big theater and tickets are assigned seating with no additional fees to buy online.

Forgot the link

https://metrograph.com/film/?vista_film_id=9999003042

Weird that Fripp did that speaking tour, when he could have just waited a bit and done kind of a roadshow tour with the doc.

Quick perusal of this album on Spotify … I don’t hear it? Maybe I’m listening to the wrong tracks? One of the other dudes is singing some of the Police tunes (ie, Darkness).
― Naive Teen Idol, Wednesday, November 9, 2022 7:22 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

thinking of this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7qxmlCyv4o

unfortunately they do not let him sing a whole lot

Ok I hear that now. That’s a fun version.

I think this was the tour where they did that radio interview where Belew freaked out about Fripp not including him in the last Crimson iteration.

I went to that Metrograph screening. (I posted what Levin said about Peter Gabriel's upcoming tour and album in the appropriate thread.)

Levin's a very nice gentleman, it was great to hear him talk. Also, I never knew he met Robert Fripp and Peter Gabriel for the first time on the same day - at a session for Gabriel's debut album. (He also didn't know anything about Genesis or King Crimson at the time. Crazy.)

Other highlights:

He was reluctant to answer this definitively since it was being recorded, but from what I can infer, the latest incarnation of King Crimson is done, and they knew it leading up to the final show in Japan. They also realize it COULD be the end of King Crimson in general, but it's impossible to say. If Fripp decides to form another incarnation of KC, that could very well happen, and he hopes he can be a part of that if it happens.

It's interesting to hear him discuss what it was like when Fripp approached him about each new incarnation of KC. He says there are very few artists who hold as much respect as Fripp from him where they could approach him like Fripp and propose something he's skeptical about and still get him to go along with it. For example, he was very skeptical when Fripp asked him to play with another bassist he didn't know and he wasn't sure three drummers would leave him any space (and he would have to make adjustments like thin out his sound), but he went along with both endeavors and was happy he did. With regards to the other bassist, Trey Gunn, Levin said he really appreciated how well Gunn played when he had to play Gunn's bass parts later on. (After the double trio concept ended, Levin left and Gunn stayed on, then Gunn eventually left and Levin came back. It's the post-double trio bass parts that Levin was referring to.)

He talked a bit about his friendship with Belew - they still do a clinic every August around Woodstock.

He also talked a lot about Bill Rieflin. He's the most moving part of the documentary for obvious reasons. For a band that size, Levin said no relationship between two people will be the same, but he and Rieflin were very close. (Levin said he had already seen the film a few times and had already been moved to tears by Rieflin's segments.) He mentioned that he and Rieflin socialized a lot, having nearly every dinner together, but he also said he never talked to Rieflin about his health and the fact that he was dying, something Rieflin is very open about in the film. He said he wished he had discussed those things in retrospect.

Finally, the highlight of the film may be a close-up of Fripp where he recalls meeting J.G. Bennett. Fripp recalls Bennett asking him his name. Fripp is about to recall Bennett's response when he tells him, and he just freezes. At his point, a lot of the audience starts to laugh. It's unclear if Fripp is recreating Bennett freezing himself. (Levin later recalls that when he saw the film for the first time via streaming, he honestly thought the stream had froze up, so he restarted his computer and re-downloaded the film.) It lasts a LONG time, I can't think of a single conventional doc that allows a moment like this run so long. People start to laugh more, but then you can see there's actually a tear rolling down Fripp's cheek, then later another tear. The image is a bit soft (probably because it's a little underlit) and as Fripp and the moderator confessed, this was the first time they were able to see the tears due to the size of the screen. (Apparently the director didn't know Fripp was crying when he chose the shot for his film. Again, the picture quality is soft and dim enough that it could be easily missed on a computer screen.) Eventually, Fripp recalls Bennett's words: "I'll remember you."

*At this point, a lot of the audience starts to laugh.

*and as Levin and the moderator confessed,

I loved the doc, and its far more revealing of Fripp and his ultra-perfectionism and how that has impacted on other ex-members then i would expect in advance. respect him a lot actually for seemingly being quite hands off with the edit, as its not always that complementary towards him.

Did the doc ever get released? The official site has it available for preorder, with a release date of Nov. 11, so ...

https://shop.schizoidshop.com/king-crimson---film-blu-ray--dvd---in-the-court-of-the-crimson-king---king-crimson-at-50-p1955.aspx

Yeah Burning Shed has been shipping copies for a while now.

I noticed they're also taking pre-orders for the 8-disc "expanded" version (2 Blu, 2 DVD, 4 CDs):
https://shop.schizoidshop.com/king-crimson---film-expanded-set---in-the-court-of-the-crimson-king---king-crimson-at-50-p1954.aspx

There's a lot of amazing shit on the 4 CDs of that soundtrack. I'm kinda tempted.

Is it all the soundtrack? I think I saw something that it was half soundtrack, half career spanning archive stuff, which no doubt overlaps with several past releases. It's hard to keep track of all their stuff.

There's no way to rent/stream the movie (yet), right?

no not yet, and it also hasn't slipped out to torrent sites (I don't know if my blu ray player works, hence me looking)

Yeah, I spent a bunch of time searching. The soundtrack is out there, though, so it's not like it's the Fripp file sharing omerta in effect.

It is on torrent sites, at least the one I'm a member of.

On the "Track listing" tab on that product page, and there's a breakdown of the material (see footnote/asterisk guide at very bottom):
CDs 1-4 (MUSIC FROM THE FILM SOUNDTRACK AND BEYOND )

CD1
1. Introductory Bellscape - Live 06-07/11/18 *
2. 21st Century Schizoid Man (edit) - mixed by Steven Wilson 2019
3. Moonchild (including cadenzas) - Live in Philadelphia, 23/09/19 **
4. Cat Food - from Cat Food EP Alt. mix by David Singleton
5. Lizard: i Prince Rupert Awakes Recorded at Wessex Studios, 1970, Keith Tippett piano 
ii Bolero iii Dawn Song iv Last Skirmish v Prince Rupertʼs Lament - Live in Rome 23/07/18 * [exc I, prev. rel]
6. The Letters - Live in the studio, Tring, 2018 *
7. Sailorʼs Tale - Live in the studio, Tring, 2018 *
8. Easy Money - Live in Oakland 05/09/19 **
9. Larksʼ Tongues In Aspic Part Two (Fripp) - Alt. mix by Steven Wilson 2012

CD 2
1. Fracture - Live in the studio, Tring, 2018 *
2. Fallen Angel - 2009 remaster by Robert Fripp & Simon Heyworth
3. Discipline - Live in the studio, Tring, 2018 *
4. Cadence And Cascade - Live in the studio, Tring, 2018 *
5. The ConstruKction Of Light - Live In Nijmegen, 22/06/19 **
6. Peace - Live in Vienna 01/12/16
7. Matte Kudasai (alt. intro) Recorded at Island Studios, 1981
8. The Mincer - Live in Zurich, 1973, completed at Air Studios, 1974
9. A Scarcity Of Miracles - Live in Japan 2015
10. Radical Action Suite - Live in the studio, Tring, 2018 *
Radical Action I / Meltdown / Radical Action II / Level Five 
11. Peace A Theme - mixed by Steven Wilson 2022 *

CD 3
1. Drumzilla - Live in Los Angeles 06/08/21 *
2. Waiting Man - Live in Frejus 27/08/82
3. Seizure - Live in San Francisco, 01/11/98
4. The Talking Drum - Alt. mix by Steven Wilson 2012
5. Indiscipline - Live in Del Ray Beach 23/07/21 **
6. Exposure - Mixed by Steven Wilson 2021
7. VROOOM - Live in Toronto 20/11/15
8. Coda: Marine 475 -Live in London 01/07/96
9. Darts - 2022 remaster by Marian Hafenstein at Possible Studios, Berlin **
10. Requiem (Extended version) - mixed by Steven Wilson 2013

CD 4
1. Walk On: Rio - Live in Rio de Janeiro 06/10/19 *
2. Larksʼ Tongues In Aspic Part One - Live in Stuttgart 16/06/19 ***
3. Breathless - Live in Poland 2018
4. One More Red Nightmare - Live in Sandy 03/08/21 ***
5. Epitaph - Live in Rio de Janeiro 06/10/20 *
6. Frame By Frame - Live in Nashville 27/09/19 ***
7. Pictures Of A City - Live in Osaka 02/12/21 ***
8. Red - Live in St. Augustine 24/07/21 ***
9. The Court Of The Crimson King - Live in Rio de Janeiro 06/10/21 *
10. Starless - Live in Tokyo 08/12/21 *

Key to OST: * = Previously unreleased, ** Previously Available via download at DGM Live/Cassette only release, *** Previously available in a different mix/master at DGM Live. All asterisked material new to CD.

xpost Well, if it's on one it's only a matter of time, I'm just surprised I haven't found it on any of the usual (non-member) sites yet.

I thought the doc was pretty good and, regardless, the best we were ever going to get on this band/man. Fripp is such a weirdo that even if the group were not mythically unknowable he would still ensure it came off cloaked in mystery. I do kind of wish they were able to delve even more into Rieflin, who after all is iirc introduced as the first member of Crimson whom Fripp actually considered/considers a friend. I've always liked Rieflin, but even seeing him live with the band I was never quite sure what, compared to the mutants around him, he brought to it, beyond Fripp's approval, which seemingly helped keep things anchored. Given he is so much of the focus of this it would have been nice to see some interaction with Fripp, though tbh there are very few scenes in this featuring anyone interacting with anyone else, at least offstage. Definitely one of the rare gigs, like Miles and Zappa, whose place on a resume pretty much says it all. Is it any wonder so many of the players have trouble putting their tenure into words?

I wonder what someone that has no idea about Crimson would make of the doc?

Thinking about this compilation/sampler, which hooked me into Frippworld for years in high school: https://www.discogs.com/release/902915-Various-Sometimes-God-Hides-The-Young-Persons-Guide-To-Discipline

reading that track list reminded me of the VROOOM EP, which was weirdly my introduction to King Crimson (I found the CD in a used CD store and King Crimson were among those bands I didn't really know much about but wanted to check out). Kind of a weird entry point for KC, but it's what made me a fan and I think the tracks that appear on both VROOOM and Thrak sound better on VROOOM (production is just too smoothed out on Thrak, the tracks lose a lot of their energy).

VROOOM EP was my intro too! I won tickets on the radio to see them the same year and the EP! My dad took me. He said "oh yah they band with the scary face on the cover" blew my young mind!

Nice. I think Thrak and this compilation might have been mine? Around the time they had some mainstream distribution and the drummers were appearing in Modern Drummer, lol. I had heard the name and those are what I found first.

I guess the Midnight Special's YouTube channel is slowly uploading its archive. They recently put up some great ones of King Crimson, specifically the Cross, Bruford, Wetton, and Fripp line-up. Pretty amazing, I've heard a ton of bootlegs but I just realized this may be the first time I've seen them. (I can't even remember if live footage of this line-up was even in the documentary - if they were, it was probably a brief glimpse.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4hrwgMndEo

here's a good one from about a year earlier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhudDa3JAyc

I've seen a great Starless+ from that era, probably the same set as yours, Moodles, as it's got the same video effects (German TV). About 27 minutes long. iirc.

That Easy Money on MS is insane, that bass tone <3

I watched the doc tonight as someone going through KC chronologically and still in the early 1980s. It gives me some idea of how the band will further evolve with the years.

I have to say I was unimpressed by the live performance of "Starless" on the BD extras. John Wetton’s vocals are widely considered the weak point of the original Red recording, and then Fripp hired in Jakko Jakszyk an even weaker vocalist? I’m not expecting much from that iteration of KC, but still it was primarily a live act rehashing old material, maybe there isn’t much for me as a home listener anyway.

yeah I have zero interest in Fripp's obsessive reworkings of the older material, there's already so much so listen to in the "original" (?) 1969-2009 era

Your view notwithstanding, I’m not sure that was a widely held belief. Personally I’ve always loved Wetton’s vocals, particularly on ballads.

Still looking forward to seeing the doc.

Jakko is not a particularly good singer but I do think he’s the one guy who can somewhat do justice to all the various eras of Crimson. He does sound like a blend of all their singers. Belew obviously has a better voice but when he does the old material it just comes off weird

exactly, Jakko's voice is generic enough to work with all of the earlier stuff (particularly the Lake-Haskel-Burrell era); and likewise, when he did Belew songs it also came off weird

I could see that. when I saw the "triple trio" lineup in summer 1995 w/Belew the only older songs I remember them doing were Larks Tongues II and Red, so it wasn't an issue. they were awesome, esp the Discipline stuff.

yes also I don't recall Belew ever singing any of the earlier incarnation's songs except the couple of times they did Schizoid Man. I guess there's the studio version of him doing "Cadance and Cascade", where he did he best not to sound like himself.

o yah they mighta done Schizoid, it was forever ago but that rings a bell

i think they only played that a handful of times, and not in the double duo but later in the 2000's; I can't seem to find good documentation of this right now

sorry, not in the double trio, but in the 'double duo' lineups that came after

ah OK, I would def not trust my memory in that especially since I clearly remember the other 2 early ones

well, a live version is on the Thrak box, so they must have played it once. and I thought they played it later, but I'm not sure; one of the projekts did though.

it's here but I can't seem to find the actual setlist, there is a ROIO

https://www.pf-db.com/index.php?concert_id=8632&bootleg_id=13499

Come to think of it the only pre Discipline songs I’ve heard Belew do are Schizoid and Cadence. Cadence is pretty enough that I think he can handle it, but Schizoid Man just sounds all wrong, he just doesn’t have that evil grit the song needs. Even Boz and Wetton are fairly convincing. It’s weird too cuz Belew does some pretty spot on impressions of other great singers.

Full 1982 show posted to the KC YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTDgmt9A2I0

Those 80s concerts are gold