King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

That Easy Money on MS is insane, that bass tone <3

I watched the doc tonight as someone going through KC chronologically and still in the early 1980s. It gives me some idea of how the band will further evolve with the years.

I have to say I was unimpressed by the live performance of "Starless" on the BD extras. John Wetton’s vocals are widely considered the weak point of the original Red recording, and then Fripp hired in Jakko Jakszyk an even weaker vocalist? I’m not expecting much from that iteration of KC, but still it was primarily a live act rehashing old material, maybe there isn’t much for me as a home listener anyway.

yeah I have zero interest in Fripp's obsessive reworkings of the older material, there's already so much so listen to in the "original" (?) 1969-2009 era

Your view notwithstanding, I’m not sure that was a widely held belief. Personally I’ve always loved Wetton’s vocals, particularly on ballads.

Still looking forward to seeing the doc.

Jakko is not a particularly good singer but I do think he’s the one guy who can somewhat do justice to all the various eras of Crimson. He does sound like a blend of all their singers. Belew obviously has a better voice but when he does the old material it just comes off weird

exactly, Jakko's voice is generic enough to work with all of the earlier stuff (particularly the Lake-Haskel-Burrell era); and likewise, when he did Belew songs it also came off weird

I could see that. when I saw the "triple trio" lineup in summer 1995 w/Belew the only older songs I remember them doing were Larks Tongues II and Red, so it wasn't an issue. they were awesome, esp the Discipline stuff.

yes also I don't recall Belew ever singing any of the earlier incarnation's songs except the couple of times they did Schizoid Man. I guess there's the studio version of him doing "Cadance and Cascade", where he did he best not to sound like himself.

o yah they mighta done Schizoid, it was forever ago but that rings a bell

i think they only played that a handful of times, and not in the double duo but later in the 2000's; I can't seem to find good documentation of this right now

sorry, not in the double trio, but in the 'double duo' lineups that came after

ah OK, I would def not trust my memory in that especially since I clearly remember the other 2 early ones

well, a live version is on the Thrak box, so they must have played it once. and I thought they played it later, but I'm not sure; one of the projekts did though.

it's here but I can't seem to find the actual setlist, there is a ROIO

https://www.pf-db.com/index.php?concert_id=8632&bootleg_id=13499

Come to think of it the only pre Discipline songs I’ve heard Belew do are Schizoid and Cadence. Cadence is pretty enough that I think he can handle it, but Schizoid Man just sounds all wrong, he just doesn’t have that evil grit the song needs. Even Boz and Wetton are fairly convincing. It’s weird too cuz Belew does some pretty spot on impressions of other great singers.

Full 1982 show posted to the KC YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTDgmt9A2I0

Those 80s concerts are gold

somebody itt long ago recommended the Absent Lovers set, which is indeed greatet

its the perfect live album. every single tune just wipes the floor with the studio version (except the two instrumentals from the 70s). I got so into it that I just didn't listen to the studio albums at all. a little later I found a copy of Discipline and when I played it my first thought was "oh no...turntable's broken"

Co-sign. Maybe my favorite live album ever, just astonishing playing and energy and joy. Wild that it’s a document of their last-ever performance.

Great it's on YT, I will put it on

Ahh, I hoped this might be a new show – the Frejus concert was released on VHS back in the 80s and I saw it in high school. Nice that it’s in YT tho. The “Waiting Man” version with Belew and Bruford duetting on percussion is fun.

Worth noting that KC opened for Roxy Music on this gig (tour?) and this is the same show where The High Road was recorded.

Damn. What an incredible pairing that show would've been.

According to Bruford, in the dressing room after recording the Absent Lovers set, Fripp lengthily detailed all the band's errors and insufficiencies that made it a disappointing performance.

looool

Count me in for being a long-time advocate of Absent Lovers, for me that basically *is* their '80s output.

after "Waiting Man" Belew says something like "I think that's the best we've ever done it" and I always imagined Fripp scowling at him right after

xxp that is amazing

I've always wondered if Absent Lovers had some overdubs on it because to my ears it is absolutely flawless. the only mistakes I can hear is maybe a backing vocal going a little off-key.

that “waiting man” is so legit

Did we ever do a KC ballot poll?

I don't think so...that one would be ripe for at least half a dozen side polls.

According to Bruford, in the dressing room after recording the Absent Lovers set, Fripp lengthily detailed all the band's errors and insufficiencies that made it a disappointing performance.

One of my fav moments from the documentary is the reveal near the end of the rubber duck with one massive eyeball that Fripp places on stage in front of the member of the band he's "keeping an eye on" what a fantastic weirdo

I liked the documentary a lot, more than I was expecting to, once I realized that the "King Crimson at 50" subtitle was truth in advertising. There will be no mention of Fripp and Toyah's YouTube covers, no interviews with the (Fripp's words) "very strange" people that like Lizard, clips of his New York period (too bad), nor mention of Jakko's long previous career and that hiring him effectively shuts down the other touring King Crimson-related brand. Nor any real mention of the three singing bass players who aren't around anymore.

Fripp describes his concept of "discipline" simply but his words always read elliptical to me. I had to replay that scene over, heck I had to replay much of his longer interviews over. He's using precise language to describe an intangible state - I can see how it would drive a lot of musicians crazy, because it feels like "have you got it yet?" Instead of say... starting on the one, his "this is what I'm doing, what are you going to do?" method of communication. An accusatory, old-fashioned challenge that's sounds more like pistols at dawn. No wonder he and the hippies hate each other. Mark E Smith as guitar playing bandleader. Jakko's description of his first phone call with Fripp was hilarious.

Wish I would have been pointed to Absent Lovers sooner in my Crimson discovery journey, I think this would have helped me appreciate the '80s material much sooner.

while liking bits of players outta KC, i’ve mostly lived just outside of KC curious zone. Maybe i should start with Absent Lovers then

I'm not sure that would be the greatest introduction to represent the totality of KC, honestly the best start would probably be those comps someone made for ILX years ago.

For a career overview. probably. The band are possibly best divided into four eras, regardless. Early prog stuff (mellotron), aggro, angular hard rocking proto metal, Belew era, and the kind of glossier/gamut running weird run to the end.

based on my knowledges belew era seems my pref style, but angular protometal sounds challenging and possible

in that case go Straight to Lark's Tongues, Starless & Bible Black, or Red, all fantastic and worthy intros in their own right

yea those 80s records really should have been under a different name, it's not really until Side 2 of Three of a Perfect Pair that you hear anything even close to what they were doing in the 70's. though I guess that ain't too different from the Trevor Rabin Yes records.

I used to think I was a pretty casual KC fan, but after buying everything from the debut through Red (and USA) and a bunch of the recent live documents, I have gradually realized that I am actually an EEB (Everything Except Belew) fan. I don't like the 80s stuff, and I don't like the 90s Thrak-era stuff, but once Fripp created the 7 or 8-man band, I was all in, cover band singer notwithstanding.

i think the original plan was for the '80s band to go under the name "discipline"

Kate's correct - IIRC it's in the doc and I think Belew had to explain that multiple times in recent years when responding to questions on social media.

some good history in wiki, none of which I knew until right now

In the late autumn of 1980, having spent several years on spiritual pursuits and then gradually returning to music (playing guitar for David Bowie, Peter Gabriel and Daryl Hall, pursuing an experimental solo career, leading instrumental new wave band The League of Gentlemen), Fripp decided to form a new "first division" rock group, but had no intentions of it being King Crimson.[89] Having recruited Bill Bruford as drummer, Fripp asked singer and guitarist Adrian Belew to join,[90] the first time Fripp would actively seek collaboration with another guitarist in a band and therefore indicative of Fripp's desire to create something unlike any of his previous work.[91]

After touring with Talking Heads, Belew agreed to join and also become the band's lyricist. Bruford's suggestion of his bassist friend Jeff Berlin was rejected as Fripp thought his playing was "too busy",[92] so auditions were held in New York: on the third day, Fripp left after roughly three auditions, only to return several hours later with Tony Levin (who got the job after playing a single chorus of "Red").[57]

Fripp later confessed that, had he known that Levin (whom Fripp had played with in Peter Gabriel's group) was available and interested, he would have selected him without holding auditions. Fripp named the new quartet Discipline, and they went to England to rehearse and write new material. They made their live debut at Moles Club in Bath, Somerset on 30 April 1981, and completed a short tour supported by the Lounge Lizards.[93][94][95] By October 1981, the band had opted to change their name to King Crimson.[10]

It's funny, when Discipline was a new record - my high school prog fans had no problem accepting the change. After Fripp's NYC albums, it was just clear that this was what he's doing now. Red has minimal lineage from In The Court... so why should this be any different? The biggest scandals in high school were Rush and Zeppelin going all in on keyboards and wtf was Neil Young's Trans

xp ok at random i went to starless and bb and have listened to 30 secs and i'm like "this is a good rock band interpretting a big band jazz song."

how am i doing

It's funny, when Discipline was a new record - my high school prog fans had no problem accepting the change. After Fripp's NYC albums, it was just clear that this was what he's doing now. Red has minimal lineage from In The Court... so why should this be any different? The biggest scandals in high school were Rush and Zeppelin going all in on keyboards and wtf was Neil Young's Trans

― Elvis Telecom

that's transphobic

wait Permanent Waves was controversial? iirc u are a few years older than me, things really changed fast back then

xp ok at random i went to starless and bb and have listened to 30 secs and i'm like "this is a good rock band interpretting a big band jazz song."

how am i doing

― rick james, critical moralist (Hunt3r)

the awesome thing about starless and bible black is that literally the fourth word is an anti-queer slur

the rest of their catalog is pretty much fine fwiw, although belew's lyrics suck. like, they're so bad they literally made me cry. and this was before transition when i didn't cry tears of joy because somebody gave me a cookie.

yea those 80s records really should have been under a different name, it's not really until Side 2 of Three of a Perfect Pair that you hear anything even close to what they were doing in the 70's. though I guess that ain't too different from the Trevor Rabin Yes records.

― frogbs, Thursday, July 13, 2023 2:37 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

And in fact, Rabin-era Yes almost went under a different name, to the extent that MTV announced an upcoming record by Cinema. But a bunch of other bands were already using that name and threatened to sue.