King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

Did we ever do a KC ballot poll?

I don't think so...that one would be ripe for at least half a dozen side polls.

According to Bruford, in the dressing room after recording the Absent Lovers set, Fripp lengthily detailed all the band's errors and insufficiencies that made it a disappointing performance.

One of my fav moments from the documentary is the reveal near the end of the rubber duck with one massive eyeball that Fripp places on stage in front of the member of the band he's "keeping an eye on" what a fantastic weirdo

I liked the documentary a lot, more than I was expecting to, once I realized that the "King Crimson at 50" subtitle was truth in advertising. There will be no mention of Fripp and Toyah's YouTube covers, no interviews with the (Fripp's words) "very strange" people that like Lizard, clips of his New York period (too bad), nor mention of Jakko's long previous career and that hiring him effectively shuts down the other touring King Crimson-related brand. Nor any real mention of the three singing bass players who aren't around anymore.

Fripp describes his concept of "discipline" simply but his words always read elliptical to me. I had to replay that scene over, heck I had to replay much of his longer interviews over. He's using precise language to describe an intangible state - I can see how it would drive a lot of musicians crazy, because it feels like "have you got it yet?" Instead of say... starting on the one, his "this is what I'm doing, what are you going to do?" method of communication. An accusatory, old-fashioned challenge that's sounds more like pistols at dawn. No wonder he and the hippies hate each other. Mark E Smith as guitar playing bandleader. Jakko's description of his first phone call with Fripp was hilarious.

Wish I would have been pointed to Absent Lovers sooner in my Crimson discovery journey, I think this would have helped me appreciate the '80s material much sooner.

while liking bits of players outta KC, i’ve mostly lived just outside of KC curious zone. Maybe i should start with Absent Lovers then

I'm not sure that would be the greatest introduction to represent the totality of KC, honestly the best start would probably be those comps someone made for ILX years ago.

For a career overview. probably. The band are possibly best divided into four eras, regardless. Early prog stuff (mellotron), aggro, angular hard rocking proto metal, Belew era, and the kind of glossier/gamut running weird run to the end.

based on my knowledges belew era seems my pref style, but angular protometal sounds challenging and possible

in that case go Straight to Lark's Tongues, Starless & Bible Black, or Red, all fantastic and worthy intros in their own right

yea those 80s records really should have been under a different name, it's not really until Side 2 of Three of a Perfect Pair that you hear anything even close to what they were doing in the 70's. though I guess that ain't too different from the Trevor Rabin Yes records.

I used to think I was a pretty casual KC fan, but after buying everything from the debut through Red (and USA) and a bunch of the recent live documents, I have gradually realized that I am actually an EEB (Everything Except Belew) fan. I don't like the 80s stuff, and I don't like the 90s Thrak-era stuff, but once Fripp created the 7 or 8-man band, I was all in, cover band singer notwithstanding.

i think the original plan was for the '80s band to go under the name "discipline"

Kate's correct - IIRC it's in the doc and I think Belew had to explain that multiple times in recent years when responding to questions on social media.

some good history in wiki, none of which I knew until right now

In the late autumn of 1980, having spent several years on spiritual pursuits and then gradually returning to music (playing guitar for David Bowie, Peter Gabriel and Daryl Hall, pursuing an experimental solo career, leading instrumental new wave band The League of Gentlemen), Fripp decided to form a new "first division" rock group, but had no intentions of it being King Crimson.[89] Having recruited Bill Bruford as drummer, Fripp asked singer and guitarist Adrian Belew to join,[90] the first time Fripp would actively seek collaboration with another guitarist in a band and therefore indicative of Fripp's desire to create something unlike any of his previous work.[91]

After touring with Talking Heads, Belew agreed to join and also become the band's lyricist. Bruford's suggestion of his bassist friend Jeff Berlin was rejected as Fripp thought his playing was "too busy",[92] so auditions were held in New York: on the third day, Fripp left after roughly three auditions, only to return several hours later with Tony Levin (who got the job after playing a single chorus of "Red").[57]

Fripp later confessed that, had he known that Levin (whom Fripp had played with in Peter Gabriel's group) was available and interested, he would have selected him without holding auditions. Fripp named the new quartet Discipline, and they went to England to rehearse and write new material. They made their live debut at Moles Club in Bath, Somerset on 30 April 1981, and completed a short tour supported by the Lounge Lizards.[93][94][95] By October 1981, the band had opted to change their name to King Crimson.[10]

It's funny, when Discipline was a new record - my high school prog fans had no problem accepting the change. After Fripp's NYC albums, it was just clear that this was what he's doing now. Red has minimal lineage from In The Court... so why should this be any different? The biggest scandals in high school were Rush and Zeppelin going all in on keyboards and wtf was Neil Young's Trans

xp ok at random i went to starless and bb and have listened to 30 secs and i'm like "this is a good rock band interpretting a big band jazz song."

how am i doing

It's funny, when Discipline was a new record - my high school prog fans had no problem accepting the change. After Fripp's NYC albums, it was just clear that this was what he's doing now. Red has minimal lineage from In The Court... so why should this be any different? The biggest scandals in high school were Rush and Zeppelin going all in on keyboards and wtf was Neil Young's Trans

― Elvis Telecom

that's transphobic

wait Permanent Waves was controversial? iirc u are a few years older than me, things really changed fast back then

xp ok at random i went to starless and bb and have listened to 30 secs and i'm like "this is a good rock band interpretting a big band jazz song."

how am i doing

― rick james, critical moralist (Hunt3r)

the awesome thing about starless and bible black is that literally the fourth word is an anti-queer slur

the rest of their catalog is pretty much fine fwiw, although belew's lyrics suck. like, they're so bad they literally made me cry. and this was before transition when i didn't cry tears of joy because somebody gave me a cookie.

yea those 80s records really should have been under a different name, it's not really until Side 2 of Three of a Perfect Pair that you hear anything even close to what they were doing in the 70's. though I guess that ain't too different from the Trevor Rabin Yes records.

― frogbs, Thursday, July 13, 2023 2:37 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

And in fact, Rabin-era Yes almost went under a different name, to the extent that MTV announced an upcoming record by Cinema. But a bunch of other bands were already using that name and threatened to sue.

literally the fourth word is an anti-queer slur

Per Genius, citing a Fripp statement that goes back to 1990s KC fandom, that word is used in its English dialectal meaning “meatball”, not as the slur.

I like the run from ITCOTCK to Islands fine but it seems to me that it's essentially the same record made in 4 different ways. ITWOP is basically a carbon copy of ITCOTCK except not as good.

The run from LTIA to Red is top tier KC for me. I have no use for anything from the 80s or 90s runs. Belew sucks.

wait Permanent Waves was controversial? iirc u are a few years older than me, things really changed fast back then

Side two of Moving Pictures was as controversial as side two of In Through The Out Door was earlier.

wow I remember none of that, I was just an early-high-school kid devouring it all

It's funny, when Discipline was a new record - my high school prog fans had no problem accepting the change.

yea I imagine it's a different experience when 7 years passes in real time than it is when you get into their entire catalogue over the course of a few weeks as I imagine a lot of people do today. was trying to think of a modern example but I think it's pretty much unheard of for bands to change as much as King Crimson or even Yes did back in those days.

I don't expect anyone to defend the Belew-era albums with me. It's all irrationally based anyway: they were albums I bought as New Crimson Albums. Plus I had front row tickets for the Three Of A Perfect Pair tour

In (checks) 46 years of record buying, I have never purposefully or mistakenly purchased an Adrian Belew solo album. I have never listened to Adrian Belew album all the way through (hell, I actually *owned* the Asia album) I had a friend in high school who defended Lone Rhino and Twang Bar King. His argument was unbelievable garbage and OF COURSE he got on the law school fast track and subsequently had an intense career as a high-end international contracts negotiator. It's weird that Belew shows up on music that I like (Crimson, Bowie, Talking Heads) and yet his own music is just terrible.

Per Genius, citing a Fripp statement that goes back to 1990s KC fandom, that word is used in its English dialectal meaning “meatball”, not as the slur.

― Melomane

i believe palmer-james! i'm also, though, sympathetic to barthes. it doesn't actually matter in terms of the _song_ that palmer-james meant "meatball", unless one is trying to say that palmer-james or fripp are Bad People for Using a Slur, and i don't, and never have, the song is just unpleasant to listen to for me because of an inapposite lyric. it's a pretty great song, actually.

i do think _op zop too wah_ is a pretty good album, if you ignore the lyrics.

I like Belew but I can see what it is people can't stand about him. a lot of his lyrics are super cringey and in general I think he comes off as being too clever for his own good. I do think it's kind of odd though that King Crimson is generally seen as Fripp's thing as much as The Fall is seen as Mark E. Smith's thing, because Belew was the singer and basically wrote all the songs for half of their catalogue and like 2/3 of their time together as a band, yet for him it's just "here's another band he was in"

question for them what not like Belew (I think you guys are all nuts): You do not like his singing (which at least on "Elephant Talk" is redolent of Byrne, but on which other songs does belew imitate him?), but do you also dislike his guitar playing? It is distinct from Fripp, for instance, when they are not interlocking, and re: their soloing style…

i bought a record by the bears once, it was absolutely terrible. let's just say that "the super bowl shuffle" is not one of belew's better efforts.

to be honest the entire recorded catalogue of William "The Refrigerator" Perry kinda sucks

to be honest the entire recorded catalogue of William "The Refrigerator" Perry kinda sucks

― frogbs

he should've stuck to his day job, fighting COBRA

You do not like his singing (which at least on "Elephant Talk" is redolent of Byrne, but on which other songs does belew imitate him?), but do you also dislike his guitar playing? It is distinct from Fripp, for instance, when they are not interlocking, and re: their soloing style…

I think there's just something that comes with - I dunno... being in Fripp's orbit - that induces you to work in a certain way. I mean I was never a big fan of The Police, but I really like those two Fripp & Andy Summers albums.

>> question for them what not like Belew (I think you guys are all nuts): You do not like his singing (which at least on "Elephant Talk" is redolent of Byrne, but on which other songs does belew imitate him?), but do you also dislike his guitar playing? It is distinct from Fripp, for instance, when they are not interlocking, and re: their soloing style…

Yes, I dislike both his singing and playing *in the context of KC*. Basically, what he does is not what I come to KC for. I like him just fine on The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads.

wow I remember none of that, I was just an early-high-school kid devouring it all

The numbers here are way small though. The number of Crimson fans I knew in high school is smaller than the number of regulars on this thread. Roughly 10x that number had important opinions on Rush. Fortunately I graduated before Van Halen's "Jump" meteor-striked all of this snobbery.

I remember once I was wearing my King Crimson Red shirt and someone stopped me to tell me how much he loved that album. But then he started describing a different album entirely and it was only when he mentioned how much he also loved "Blue" and "Yellow" that I figured out he was talking about the Belew group

I like Belew and his KC output, or at least 80% of it. The 80's albums are all great as is Thrak; the only really awful lyrics were later on like The World is My Oyster Soup etc. I even like a large portion of his solo output and I would recommend anyone and everyone give Desire Caught by the Tail a listen, which is instrumental and really amazing.

fuck it, here's side one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24DKSkOQzm8

Rationally, I know Belew is a talented writer, excellent guitarist, skillful singer, and sometimes he makes an effort at writing interesting lyrics. But there's some factor that turns me off unless his aim is dead-centre, and the material is really exceptional. When he's just OK or "interesting", I can't enjoy it.
I'm glad some people like him more than I do, because he deserves it!

one thing about Belew I have a lot of respect for is that he's genuinely really good at imitating other vocalists - obviously his David Byrne is really good on the recent Remain in Light tour, also during those Gizmodrome shows they play several Police songs and he can do Sting better than Sting can at this point. not to mention his Dylan impression on Zappa's "Flakes" which is as spot on as it gets. also can't help but notice his voice has virtually not changed AT ALL over the last 40 years. combine that with the fact that he's an excellent guitar player and can write a lot of songs quickly and it's no wonder he got so much work back then.

also rusho I feel obligated to mention that first Bears album is actually quite good, like way better than I thought it would be, which is not to say that you personally would like it at all

"Big Electric Cat" is my fave solo thing of his

“It's weird that Belew shows up on music that I like (Crimson, Bowie, Talking Heads) and yet his own music is just terrible.”

in light of this thread i’ll say that this is actually my professional legal opinion.

I love early 90s KC, but the only thing I can sort of criticize Belew for is an image thing: the poor guy’s professional career took off so late that he basically went straight into dad rock.

Early 80s KC, I meant.

i would hardly call the lyrics to Frame by Frame or Three of a Perfect Pair cringeworthy or bad

one thing about Belew I have a lot of respect for is that he's genuinely really good at imitating other vocalists - obviously his David Byrne is really good on the recent Remain in Light tour, also during those Gizmodrome shows they play several Police songs and he can do Sting better than Sting can at this point. not to mention his Dylan impression on Zappa's "Flakes" which is as spot on as it gets. also can't help but notice his voice has virtually not changed AT ALL over the last 40 years. combine that with the fact that he's an excellent guitar player and can write a lot of songs quickly and it's no wonder he got so much work back then.

― frogbs

he actually did a lot of really good shit on that tour with zappa, zappa just mixed most of his stuff out of the sheik yerbouti album because he was mad that belew quit zappa's band to play with bowie, who was offering belew a _lot_ more money. i don't see why zappa should be _mad_ about this stuff, i thought he was a _capitalist_...

also rusho I feel obligated to mention that first Bears album is actually quite good, like way better than I thought it would be, which is not to say that you personally would like it at all

― frogbs

i was just shitposting, i actually have heard the first bears album and it's ok but not really my cup of tea

re: belew-- his solo is so nope for me, but yeah i think belew's guitar is exactly what i often want, and he melds so well in bowie and talking heads whose live rome is beyond favorite+. obv kc era i don't know, belew is maybe a second part of why i didn't try to understand/listen to kc. (first part is straightup distrust of prog, really).

i finished listening to blahblah black bible while hiking and appreciated it often. the most accessible and straightforward stuff was best suited for my walk, like lament and fracture. anyhow maybe i'm one step into my journey lol.

TY all