On Djing...

yeah i'm hearing heatstroke. what i'm calling an EP, discogs calls an album!!

https://www.discogs.com/release/20044-Man-Parrish-Man-Parrish

^^ that's what i got rid of. the entire b-side is ... not my thing

poor sylve. at least she made an incredible song from the heartbreak. sylve he probably wasn't that great anyway, trust.

xp oh! maybe what i heard is a different mix? i see yours is labeled "club mix" (didn't listen) and i see there's a "disconet mix" also. i'll have to compare

^^

Bobby O is problematic I have heard, but got damn if both those tracks are not complete all time bangers.

he is a master of cowbells

i’m dumb, i think i was confusing it with “together again”

Heatstroke club mix, b-side of Hip Hop Be Bop, that's all you need to know.

i def consider that yellow covered one an LP.

Bobby O made homophobic statements. Talk about not knowing your audience.

or collaborators.

or influences.

is “i feel love” hi nrg?

also if hi-nrg does not equal eurodisco (selzer, 2023) where / how do we draw the line?

also if hi-nrg does not equal eurodisco (selzer, 2023) where / how do we draw the line?

polite request to keep it fun itt thanks

What's not fun?

I Feel Love is proto hi nrg. It's also prot space disco and proto techno and proto new wave and proto everything that's been done since.

When I said that about eurodisco I think I meant eurobeat. The eurodisco thread I think had some talk about stuff like Modern Talking or like, the mid 80s post-italo cheesy european dance pop.

But I'd say euro-disco is a big umbrella term that includes basically any late 70s disco from europe, space disco, cosmic disco etc etc. Doesn't always have the high tempos of hi-nrg. Beyond that I'd just say I know hi-nrg when I hear it. This description from wiki is good "The rhythm is characterized by an energetic, staccato, sequenced synthesizer sound of octave basslines"

There's a lot of crossover with italo and I think you can easily call a lot of italo hi-nrg, if it's fast, frenetic, has happier more pop vocals perhaps. So it depends on era and location. San Francisco hi-nrg is one thing, coming earlier, more live and analog it's more closely related to disco I'd think. Ian Levine style UK hi-nrg is later, is another thing.

hi nrg is a feeling

yo I got a "real" DJ gig!

a guy I have known forever who plays in local bands has been coming to my restaurant sets, he texted the other day to see if I want to do a set after his band plays at a local arcade/bar/dance club

sweet!

nice!!

that's great sleeve!! hope it goes excellently for you

prob gonna lead with this banger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro9gCn7yBI0

(thanks all!)

What's not fun?

personally don't love genre nit-picking but you guys are turning it into a cool and interesting conversation so ignore me please!

i'll admit to (maybe) having been guilty of that in the past, but trust that here i'm just asking questions, because i've never really been clear on what constitutes hi-nrg

i also think that ppl get very weird when supposed "genre nit-picking" happens. but we're not going to pretend that genres don't exist, are we? or that (other, non-ilx) people don't invest time and energy in deciding which genres they like and which genres they don't?

so for me, what you call "genre nit-picking" is actually not an exercise in trying to rigidly define what constitutes a certain genre. or, at least, that's not the *end goal*. instead i think it's useful to think about these things as if they're rigid (even though we know they're not!) as an analytical exercise, in order to figure out precisely what's *wrong* with those rigid definitions, and to maybe discover things about genres and songs that we may miss if we just accept received understandings of genres (whether broad or specific)

when i say "very weird" i mainly mean "weirdly defensive". i think it's weird mainly because there's just nothing to be defensive about, nobody is personally being attacked and genres (if they exist at all!) don't have feelings

i was accused of "gatekeeping psychedelic music" a couple weeks ago when i was just making some dumb jokes, jokes in response to someone saying "west coast psychedelic music isn't psychedelic enough" ... idk if it's my uber confident gigachad posting style or what, but who tf am i to keep gates? i'm just some rando on the internet with bad opinions and naive questions, don't let my dumb bs ruffle yr feathers!

imo genres are fluid because you can say you like X music because it's Y genre

this may or may not make sense to anyone beyond your immediate cohort, or perhaps yourself

I find genres and genre discussions helpful, especially if you have a very liberal idea of what these things mean and understand how fluid it and nebulous it is. Does it make sense to say Television made post-punk in 1975 or the best italo disco was from Quebec? It's all fun.

<3 you all, stay disco freaks forever please

nobody is personally being attacked

I think what it comes down to is that no one has this perfectly academic relationship with art. When you start trying to create strata and separate pens within art, it can feel reductive to people's personal interpretations and experiences. There's a rarefied, esoteric, and very noodley conversation to be had with the right tone and tenor, always - we're on ILM after all! - but that conversation to anyone who feels like an outsider can be perceived as personally invalidating to the perceptions mh describes.

Hard agree with dan overall too, esp w/r/t the liberal and fluid interpretations of these things.

ummm i guess so except that sounds like generally the opposite of how i approach the topic. the game is not exclusion (“mike dunn is not acid house because he doesn’t use 303s”) but inclusion (“is i feel love hi nrg?”)

i’m also not sure how it’s helpful to use loaded language like “strata” and “separate pens” to describe the process, esp when i pointed out my goal is to think critically abt genres by playing the genre game, not to actually create rigid definitons!

loaded language like “strata” and “separate pens”

Somewhat illustrative of my point that you consider those loaded terms rather than just categorical descriptions!

I agree that the game isn't exclusion, just pointing out why discussions like this sometimes end up heightened and accusations of gatekeeping can fly.

that’s fair. probably need to make my intent more clear, or apply sarcasm tags in earnest

i think with strata the problem is they’re arranged vertically to start with, so it implies a hierarchy. pens implies things are stuck inside genres, history of dance music illustrates well enough how the reality is quite the opposite! also means that the idea of strata is fraught even if you think of the strata as vertical only in the sense of time and history

genrestential drift

the best italo disco was from Quebec

otm

My take on this coming from the European side is that “Euro-disco” was an almost exclusively American umbrella term for all kinds of disco (‘classic’ non-electronic disco, space, italo, hi-nrg) that just happened to be made in Europe, and (certainly initially) had a slight derogatory angle - which it gradually lost when the global center of gravity for disco shifted to Europe post-1980.

Nearly all "euro," "japanese," "asian" etc. labelling of music by white folks, American or European, is reductive or derogatory. Nicheification (?) for personal benefit of control.

hmm well maybe not all to the same degree - stuff like “italo disco”, “britpop” or “eurodance” has come to mean a pretty distinctive sound, not so much in a derogatory way.

IIRC italo-disco rose to prominence as a self-label for Italian bands selling on the German market, yeah? Britpop was similarly coined by Brits. I guess I mean in terms of labelling of the other, not as self-differentiation. I may be wrong, but wasn't Eurodance a term that originated by European DJs, especially in Germany, to differentiate themselves as something other than Chicago/Detroit also-rans?

I feel like those are all self-labels in that regard.

Britpop yes, but Italo was definitely not a self-label - or at least, the book “The History of Italo Disco” by Verrina makes a big point of it, the interviewed producers are all amused by foreigners coining the name and say “it was just Disco to us”.

Also, because it wasn’t really self-coined, there’s always been that big debate around it, does “Italo Disco” simply mean all disco made in Italy including the older non-electronic stuff, or does it mean “that” typical synths/bass/drums sound & melodies, and can we include the non-italian soundalikes?

(personally, I am in the “Italo is a sound” camp, but I’m using dance music genres mainly from a utilitarian/DJ point of view where I need them as sonic descriptors, not so much from a cultural history pov).

just popping in to say, as I get very few opportunities in my life to do, how much I love GAZEBO, specifically "Wrap The Rock", simultaneously one of the goofiest and most transcendent songs ever produced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5GHGSMXn3Q

Nearly all "euro," "japanese," "asian" etc. labelling of music by white folks, American or European, is reductive or derogatory.

euro in particular has been used as a descriptor for decades for all sorts of things, from various strands of dance music (euro dance, eurobeat etc.) to the out there fringes, and definitely not in a derogatory way.

virgin megastore in edinburgh in the early 80s to have a big section simply labeled euro that included things such as roedelius, holger czukay, all the rock in opposition lot, zoviet france, les disques du crepuscule, peter baumann, the homosexuals, nww and associated acts etc. i don't really know what the thinking behind this wild grouping was but it felt intriguing, exciting, illusive and lots of other adjectives that are not reductive.

half the record stores I frequent still have sections labelled 'world music' and 'female artists' :/

Italo is a sound for sure, like it or not.

It was created in germany when ZYX started releasing comps.

Some of the earlier stuff I also call eurodisco, the stuff with live drums, big strings etc. It's just disco, from italy, in europe, so call it what you want.

I've always found it useful to split italo up into three eras.

1. the live band disco stuff, really no different from any other euro-disco in sound, Cerrone, Don Ray, Gino Soccio in canada. Eurodisco, space disco. Some people call Cerrone or Soccio italo-disco. That's fine with me, though inaccurate if you want to be pedantic. But like, when somebody who is not a record nerd asked me to dj an italo set 20 years ago, they weren't getting upset when I played Gino Soccio's Remember.

2. The electro period, this is closer to 1983. More DIY/lo-fi. Drum machines. Vocoders. This is the cool stuff. Spacer Woman. Wanexa. Sun La Shan. This has as much in common with electro-funk, new wave, minimal synth etc, depending on which records you're playing.

3. The big pop sound, 1984 and on the cheesier stuff, aiming for the charts. There's a little bit of crossover with the electro stuff but a lot of it I find pretty terrible, and for a lot of people, this is THE italo sound. And I know italo fans and DJs who play as much of this stuff as the other two. I don't. Maybe a song or two makes it.

That's my reductive take on italo-disco. I've been meaning to write my book on italo that would cover that but mostly focus on italo's import and influence in america, from the NY record labels that were pressing it in the early 80s to the chicago proto house labels pressing it in the mid 80s. It's going to be somewhere between a zine and a real book, but it will be my personal interests/perspective and will probably anger european pop fans.

wild grouping

Possibly a difference of opinion but I guess, to me, the description of that sounds like exoticization (due to perspective and life experience) and I consider exoticization reductive.

thread delivers, ty Dan

I’m fairly sure exoticising Europe /Europeans is not a thing!

half the record stores I frequent still have sections labelled 'world music' and 'female artists' :/

I’m fairly sure exoticising Europe /Europeans is not a thing!

I can speak to certain communities I was involved in in the 90s where "weird European" / exotic tone was used as a shield for borderline white supremecist views that were normalized through their "weirdness." Also (again, at least in America) non-mainline European cultures, especially nations that were in Eastern Europe and extra-especially Jewish music, were often rendered as exotic in the media I encountered.