King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

nobody turned away, on their phone, distracted

Agreed, though at the same time ...

King Crimson's photo policy is notorious. Before every concert, they post signs on the stage that say:

"Good evening ladies and gentlemen
Welcome to the show
Now that you are in the venue please
refrain from taking any pictures
using a camera or your phone
until the very end of the show
or you may be asked to leave
thank you..."

they had that posted at my show but being that it was an outdoor show in inclement weather in 2020, I don't think there were the usual number of people enforcing it. i didn't have any issue with complying as I was pretty engrossed.

Yeah same here. If you really needed a photo, at least they all stayed on the stage at the very end (also taking photos of the audience, which I thought was cute).

Bill Bruford's got a pretty great YouTube channel - I'm just skimming through it now, but one of these weekends when the weather's shitty, I'm going to spend it watching everything on there. Pretty amazing to see the Red-era Crimson performing - I've got a ton of their recordings but unless I've forgotten, I don't think I've ever seen live footage of them, at least footage that was decent quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVzTmp3ZV4o

Also lots more with the Discipline-era group, including some from the tour where they opened for Roxy Music in 1982.

I'm also finally watching the doc. I was an idiot for not going to see them on the last tour, I remember driving past the venue on my way to whatever.

Beat-Tour.com

"Former King Crimson members ADRIAN BELEW and TONY LEVIN band together with guitar virtuoso STEVE VAI and explosive Tool drummer DANNY CAREY for the first time to create BEAT, a creative reinterpretation of the three iconic 80s KING CRIMSON albums – Discipline, Beat, and Three Of A Perfect Pair."

Yep, when I think of two guitar players who are definitely doing the same thing, guys you could basically swap one for the other and no one would notice or object, I *definitely* think of Robert Fripp and Steve Vai.

I thought this was going to be about RF's April Fool's Day video, which I wish I could go back in time and blind myself to keep from seeing.
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=1464710544114056

Yep, when I think of two guitar players who are definitely doing the same thing, guys you could basically swap one for the other and no one would notice or object, I *definitely* think of Robert Fripp and Steve Vai.

surely the point isn't to "swap" Fripp for Vai. I think this will be far more interesting than if they just drafted some rando Guitar Craft guy to simply play Fripp's parts

I'm no Vai stan, but I don't think he would say yes to this if he didn't think he could pull off something that would satisfy Fripp fans. Because yeah, if Belew wanted Fripp clones, there are plenty of clones out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEcbaK_fUU

Well, I'm already on record as choosing to pretend 80s Crimson doesn't exist, so whatever.

weird choice to ignore a band's absolute pinnacle but takes all kinds I guess

It was originally a new band called Discipline, so seems fair to not consider it was KC. I guess they changed the name for some kind of brand recognition?

same story for Yes, originally the Rabin band was called Cinema but they decided to change it to Yes because they wanted to sell more records. they actually couldn't legally do this unless they had 3 original members, which is why they called Tony Kaye back (this is according to Eddie Jobson, who was in the band for about 2 days)

tbh I do feel 80s Crimson should've been called something else, like going from "Starless" to "Elephant Talk" on consecutive album tracks is just too big a leap for it to be the same band (whereas Yes were kinda going pop/New Wave for a couple records prior to 90125). it doesn't really matter but it's just kind of a weird legacy thing. I had a King Crimson Red shirt one and someone stopped me once to talk about how much he loved that album...except it turned out, he was talking about Discipline (with the red cover) and had no idea about their 60s and 70s material

that said I do think Three of a Perfect Pair feels like a King Crimson album on Side 2 - like if they were trying to make Starless and Bible Black using all their new tools. it's not entirely successful but more interesting than I remembered

Probably a discussion for another thread (despite the Bruford connection) but 90125 was mostly the songs Trevor Rabin had written for a solo album I think? So not really Yes. Still, some supergroup called Cinema would have sunk without trace, as would a new Fripp band called Discipline. Management/record labels OTM in getting them to change the names!

he didn't rename the band to KC simply for financial or management reasons, he has his own theoretical motivations for such things and has said ever since that he felt that the 'sprit of KC' had entered the sessions, and I believe him on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3FUcSHeJJg

The songs for 90125 started as Rabin pieces, but they were massively improved when Jon Anderson came into the mix and had his own input. That Yes factor really took it from good to great.

Rabin released all his demos for this on 90124, and it's pretty clear how much better these songs got once Anderson was involved.

(well, and Horn)

I mean I don't begrudge either band for that, lets face it we'd probably all do the same thing in that situation. I think it makes more sense for Yes than King Crimson though. I think anything Jon Anderson sings on is gonna sound like Yes to some degree, whereas Belew was quite different from other KC vocalists. Also Yes's live shows still had a bunch of their classic tracks in the setlist - 80's Crimson only did Red & Larks 2 I think. even in 1981. but I guess that *is* true to the spirit of Crimson...iirc the Wetton band only pulled out the occasional Schizoid Man and Cat Food

it is so peculiar to me that anyone other than saddo weirdo prog deadenders are so against Adrian Belew and his influence what we agree to call to King Crimson. There evidently were or maybe still are extremely odd english guys who would insist that KC IS A EUROPEAN BAND, THERE CAN BE NO PLACE FOR AMERICANS! and shit like that, could not handle Belew's levity and outgoing charm, and were delighted by the final, all Englishman version of the band (which was the first that really was conservative and backward-facing, as very obviously Bob let Superfan Jakko take over and do Lizard and Islands songs all day)…

on the other hand, despite their shared pedigree, Vai resembles Belew as a player far more than he does Fripp —and if Vinnie C took the spot he was mooted for, this would have been a Zappa alum band playing 80s Crim. anyway, when Bob sez "vai is the best guy to take my spot in this version of the band," he really is indulging in a hard sell that one would think he would never deign to. Furthermore, lots and lots of big time players —none of whom are Crafty Clones, but many who are accomplished as soundscapers then Steve "Single note Shredder" Vai — would be better suited, and I'll start with David Torn. Surely you guys can spitball some others…

now you guys are making me sad we didn't get emerson, lake, and (robert) palmer

Lots of options!

Michael Brook (who did time in the Sylvian/Fripp band)
Vernon Reid
Andy Summers

it is so peculiar to me that anyone other than saddo weirdo prog deadenders are so against Adrian Belew and his influence what we agree to call to King Crimson. There evidently were or maybe still are extremely odd english guys who would insist that KC IS A EUROPEAN BAND, THERE CAN BE NO PLACE FOR AMERICANS! and shit like that, could not handle Belew's levity and outgoing charm, and were delighted by the final, all Englishman version of the band (which was the first that really was conservative and backward-facing, as very obviously Bob let Superfan Jakko take over and do Lizard and Islands songs all day)…

This is a losing proposition for me in so many ways...I mean, I actually would rather listen to Vai than Belew any day, but to replace Bill Bruford with the tool from Tool...whatever. It's Not For Me.

Calling the final version of KC "conservative and backward-facing" is a weird take, though. Not only were the old songs radically rearranged for the double- and triple-drum versions of the band, but they wrote and performed at least an album's worth of new material as well over the length of that lineup's journey. I only saw them once but it was definitely not a "here's what we know you want to hear, exactly how you remember it" show at all.

Buford rules, but Danny Carey is no slouch. I mean, who would have guessed that the post Buford KC drum mainstay would be the drummer from Mr. Mister?

Weird, that tour dates webpage linked above currently just says "coming soon."

Maybe it's a prank...

Lol, when I looked at it earlier it had a bunch of dates. Midwest in November.

If KC had stopped after the '80s that band would seem like a big departure, but that music is firmly embedded in everything that came after, so it retroactively feels more natural.

Yah, rag on Belew or whatever, but he and Levin were pretty key to everything 1980 and on. Arguably essential, given the group never released any studio albums post-Belew.

I assume the website thing is just a hiccup, it even said tix went onsale this Friday.

Internerds indicating that maybe the site was supposed to go live tomorrow. Anyway:

9/12 - San Jose, CA San Jose Civic

9/13 - Napa, CA Blue Note Napa Summer Sessions at Meritage Resort

9/14 - Los Angeles, CA The United Theater on Broadway

9/15 - Anaheim, CA City National Grove of Anaheim

9/17 - San Diego, CA Humphrey’s Concerts

9/18 - Phoenix, AZ Celebrity Theatre

9/20 - Austin, TX The Paramount Theatre

9/21 - Houston, TX Bayou Music Centre

9/22 - Dallas, TX Majestic Theatre

9/24 - Atlanta, GA The Eastern

9/26 - Fort Lauderdale, FL The Parker

9/27 - Orlando, FL Hard Rock Live

9/28 - Clearwater, FL Ruth Eckerd Hall

9/29 - Charleston, SC Charleston Music Hall

10/01 - Charlotte, NC Knight Theater

10/02 - Durham, NC Carolina Theatre of Durham / Fletcher Hall

10/04 - Washington, DC Warner Theatre

10/05 - New York, NY Beacon Theatre

10/06 - Glenside, PA Keswick Theatre

10/08 - Richmond, VA Carpenter Theater in Dominion Energy Center

10/09 - Red Bank, NJ Count Basie Center

10/11 - Boston, MA Shubert Theatre

10/12 - Hampton Beach, NH Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom

10/14 - Halifax, NS Rebecca Cohen Auditorium

10/15 - Moncton, NB Casino New Brunswick

10/17 - Montreal, QC Theatre Maisonneuve

10/18 - Toronto, ON Massey Hall

10/19 - Rochester, NY Kodak Center

10/21 - Albany, NY The Egg

10/22 - Greensburg, PA Palace Theatre

10/23 - Reading, PA Santander Performing Arts Center

10/25 - Cleveland, OH Agora Theatre

10/26 - Cincinnati, OH Taft Theatre

10/27 - Royal Oak, MI Royal Oak Music Theatre

10/28 - Nashville, TN Ryman Auditorium

10/30 - Indianapolis, IN Murat Theatre

11/01 - Chicago, IL Copernicus Center

11/02 - Milwaukee, WI Pabst Theatre

11/03 - Madison, WI Orpheum Theater

11/04 - Minneapolis, MN State Theatre

11/06 - Denver, CO Paramount Theatre

11/08 - Las Vegas, NV The Theater at Virgin Hotels

Belew is awesome, unperson, you are so committed to contrary takes sometimes.

Yeah, but other than his iconic contributions to Crimson, Bowie, Talking Heads, Tom Tom Club, Laurie Anderson, Paul Simon, Nine Inch Nails and a few others, what impact has he made, really?

lol he even plays on this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBtTr2i8JXs

I assume that's him playing the "trumpet" solo around 4:30

Markus Reuter was my pick for a Fripp-stand in for ongoing post Fripp KC versions of the band.

lol Josh

it is so peculiar to me that anyone other than saddo weirdo prog deadenders are so against Adrian Belew and his influence what we agree to call to King Crimson. There evidently were or maybe still are extremely odd english guys who would insist that KC IS A EUROPEAN BAND, THERE CAN BE NO PLACE FOR AMERICANS! and shit like that, could not handle Belew's levity and outgoing charm, and were delighted by the final, all Englishman version of the band (which was the first that really was conservative and backward-facing, as very obviously Bob let Superfan Jakko take over and do Lizard and Islands songs all day)…

― veronica moser

lol at the idea that jakko "took over"

no idea _what_ happened with the belew band but that king crimson documentary (which i now only faintly remember, to be fair) was interesting on those grounds

one of the funniest parts of that movie was the filmmaker asking jakko in so many words if he felt like he was kind of only there to do what fripp wanted him to, to which fripp interrupted and said "don't be talking about jakko like that, he is an equal member of the band and has an equal voice, he's not just there at my behest"

regarding the lizard and islands songs my understanding is that it has a certain amount to do with conflicts between fripp and EG regarding the rights to those recordings, and that once those conflicts were resolved to fripp's satisfaction he was happy to begin playing them. he seemed happy enough to play the belew-era songs as well. belew, however, didn't seem particularly happy about that.

my thing about belew is... it's not that he's an _american_, it's that there was this sort of polymorphous nature to pre-'81 crimson. fripp had and has a "puppet master" role to varying degrees. he's fascinating guy, weird, brilliant, genuinely charismatic. i think you can see how charismatic he is in how eager so many brilliant people like belew are to work with him, despite how demanding and, i'll just say it, controlling his behavior often is. he could probably have made it as a cult leader except that he's not, like, sociopathic or whatever the hell it is cult leaders have going on.

i guess i'd say is that fripp's role in the group is that he makes sure that the group always has an _aim_, he's the one who ultimately determines what that aim is. aside from that, though, they could do goddamn anything. to me, there's a world of difference between march 1972 king crimson and august 1972 king crimson. nobody in those bands left a _mark_ on the band the way belew did.

belew comes in and there's this strange contrast, this light and dark thing they have going on. to me, belew as a frontman is kind of like a goofy "wife guy" uncle. he's good-natured, kind of corny, awesome to be around, really obviously incredibly knowledgeable and talented. gets tiring to be around after a while. whereas fripp is weird in a kind of scary way, but somehow safely scary? like this is a guy who could probably do some really messed up stuff, but he doesn't because he's too busy obsessively practicing a song he wrote about a mental breakdown he had in 1973 over and over and over again. i vibe with that in a way i don't really with belew.

I think what makes Belew so special is that he's game for anything, maybe one of the most versitile singer-songwriters out there. Obviously there are a lot of people willing to experiment with all sorts of things within their own solo career or band but Belew always seemed willing to fill in as much or as little as is needed without feeling the need to take things over. I'm guessing that's why Fripp liked him. I do agree that Belew is kind of an awkward fit when you hear the band's 60s and 70s stuff but it's a testament to his skill that he was able to make it work anyway.

Part of what makes KC so fascinating is the fact that Fripp really isn't much of a songwriter. That's why he never really had much of a proper solo career and that's why King Crimson always sounded like a musicians around them. Even on Exposure you can tell that most of the actual songs were probably written by the singers, not that Fripp doesn't come up with some great contributions to them anyhow. So I can buy this idea that there's a continuity from Red -> Discipline, as this is the band now, this is the year, we go where the music takes us. I mean its not like the Lake band and the Wetton band were all that similar either. But then the 90s incarnation rolls around, centered around this "double trio" idea, which ultimately sounds to me like they were trying to recapture the sound of the Wetton band, but with more grunge? You can tell it's King Crimson, which is kind of the problem. And still I can't help but notice Belew is the only one writing actual songs there. I dig THRAK and TPTB though.

I think it's always been curious to me that as divergent and distinctive Belew is as a player, you can still hear his allegiance to something as basic or conventional as the Beatles. Whereas Fripp was always about starting over, ignoring influences, doing his own thing. That both ended up in a band together for so long is pretty remarkable, given Fripp's unique presence, which doesn't really allow a lot of room for outside influence.

I've always wondered what Belew would have been like without the Talking Heads. Did David Byrne allow him to be himself, or was Belew so enamored that he couldn't help but imitate?

Fripp gives me a Bob Hoskins as a serial killer vibe

lol i was trying to figure out a way to talk about robert fripp's personality without using the words "serial killer"

"like don't get me wrong when i say 'serial killer vibe' i don't mean that in a _bad_ way"

like i could say "bob fripp is the kind of guy where you wouldn't be surprised to find out that he kept women chained up in his basement" but i feel like it's something i'd need to go into greater detail on. being chained up in weird guys' basements is kind of a special interest of mine and there are a lot of different sorts of people that sentence could describe

first off, he's not the kind of guy i'd _want_ to chain me up in his basement. i'm sure robert fripp is an extremely slutty man but he just doesn't have that sort of robert-pattinson-in-twilight energy about him. (make fun of that robert-pattinson-in-twilight energy all you want but that _is_ a thing and i don't _care_ how "bourgeois" you think it is.) at the same time it's not one of those "oh my god i'm not getting out of here alive am i" situations. like it would all be very decent and respectful and above-board, no hanky-panky, no fooling around. none of that. maybe he'd take a couple of (completely chaste) pictures, but what he'd do with those pictures later is his business and nothing to do with me.

what he reminds me of most are those guys with the private dungeons where i'm not really into them, but i'd scene with them just because it was a really nice dungeon with some cool gear. nothing _against_ him per se, but mostly i'm just there for the dungeon.

pardon me y'all, i very conspicuously did _not_ get chained up in a dungeon this weekend and i was _very much expecting to_ and i'm sort of working out some of my frustrations here.

If anything he strikes me as a sub. The stereotype of the control freak who gets off on totally relinquishing it.

he only subs to the _music_, maaaaaaaaaaaan

idk like i said this has nothing to actually do with robert fripp haha

You know Beato is in his imperial phase because he keeps getting all these great interviews:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQM09t5E2c

I don’t know much 80s KC except the instrumental to “sleepless” sounds cool as hell slowed down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcNe8cDbpWE

I ended up buying tickets to see them in Chicago and again in Madison. I figured you know, this music has given me so much joy over the years, and Belew is 74 and Levin is 77, and both of them are one of a kind talents and can't do this forever. And then there's Carey and Vai, who are about the same age (62 and 63, not young, either), and while I don't care about Vai, he and Carey are incredibly gifted. Factor in other commitment schedules (Carey with Tool, Levin with Gabriel, Vai with whatever it is that Vai does), and honestly I don't know how easy it will be to get these nerds together again after this run.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but David Cross is touring with a band that's doing all of Lark's Tongue and some Starless and Red material too.

lol my first thought was the comedian.