Charli XCX

Tape Notes podcast episode today.

I like this but I’d like an instrumental version much more.

I can’t think of another genius level auteur operating in this genre/domain. Maybe only producers? Gaga probably but her music doesn’t speak to me like Charli’s. I guess Madge is the template but not quite the same.

― assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 12 June 2024 21:19 (four days ago) link

“Auteur?”

yeah OK whatever, I think Pop 2 defined a whole new scope for pop music, and she has sought out underground producers to develop her vision, but I don't need to be dragged for enthusiasm thanks. The new record is great but not perfect, I still love her work, I accept that others don't see her in the same light.

what's some of yalls floor for auteur? idk

Prince.

In fairness I think current historical conditions make truly being an auteur (in the specific sense matttkkkk appears to mean it here, being to "define... a whole new scope" for an area of music) much less likely for even a very talented artist than was the case in decades past - this is not so much about the rate of innovation slowing down (though that's relevant) as it is about the increasing difficulty of seeing contemporary artist in such terms given the way in which music is now promoted, disseminated and consumed.

As kamala might note, it's difficult for people to present themselves as having just fallen out a coconut tree.

Do you mean economically? Because it's easier now for a single person to realize musical ideas than at any time in history, by like a million miles.

In fairness I think current historical conditions make truly being an auteur (in the specific sense matttkkkk appears to mean it here, being to "define... a whole new scope" for an area of music) much less likely for even a very talented artist than was the case in decades past - this is not so much about the rate of innovation slowing down (though that's relevant) as it is about the increasing difficulty of seeing contemporary artist in such terms given the way in which music is now promoted, disseminated and consumed.

As kamala might note, it's difficult for people to present themselves as having just fallen out a coconut tree.

― Tim F, Thursday, June 20, 2024 8:03 PM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

How so? Writing, recording, and publishing music is the easiest its ever been. I think that’s why I balked at the “auteur” claim as most musicians write and record their own music.

I would say she was, if she was self-produced*. As it is, I think you can make a case but it would probably have to extend beyond music and into her whole image and er,I'm not about to try.

* Thinking of this thread today as I read this

Pop 2 single “I Got It” has a similar patter chorus and weirdo vibe. The ripoff accusations – which Charli acknowledged in a mildly shady video after “I Luv It” dropped – are endless, but personally, I don’t hear it. Charli XCX didn’t invent this sound.

Auteur is the least objectionable descriptor … I think she’s cultivated a vibe, or whatever

I just think the efforts to brand her as both a pop star and innovator seem contradictory in a way that is kind of cringe for her fans … they want her to both be a chief Keef style innovator of new styles and a drake style pop star of platforming cool ideas and until the success of this recent project she had the strengths of neither and the weaknesses of both (ie platform was niche and ideas were pilfered)

It does feel like the zeitgeist and her strange midpoint position in it has finally aligned (probably closer to how Keef has somehow also managed to match it) in a way that feels closer to “innovative” than “platforming”—even if the ideas aren’t hers they’re arranged in a way which seems uniquely compelling

Do you mean economically? Because it's easier now for a single person to realize musical ideas than at any time in history, by like a million miles.

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Friday, 21 June 2024 00:45 (thirty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is actually part of why (note again I'm interpreting "auteur" in the specific sense that matttkkkk appeared to be deploying it - i.e. with the relevant focus being on distinction rather than self-creation): there are so many artists realising their musical ideas simultaneously - and the barriers to doing so are now so low - that the prospect that any one artist can be associated with "defining a new scope" for a type of music for more than about a month is just very slim. I'm instinctively reluctant to consider Charli XCX in those terms but that reflects the historical moment as much as or more than it does her position within it.

I can’t think of another genius level auteur operating in this genre/domain. Maybe only producers? Gaga probably but her music doesn’t speak to me like Charli’s. I guess Madge is the template but not quite the same.

― assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 12 June 2024 21:19 (four days ago) link

Let’s reign this kind of shit in a bit, can we ?

― xheugy eddy (D-40), Sunday, June 16, 2024 6:24 AM (five days ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is way out of line. ilm has been a much better place without your snide toxicity masquerading as truly idiotic "criticism" and for its sake i hope you consider stepping out of the room again.

The person who dismisses huge swaths of artists is the one who’s being reasonable & im the one being snide and toxic! Ok

I didn’t know id made an enemy of map honestly. lol I usually like your posts. Not sure why it came to this but I genuinely found that post off putting… constructing an ilx canon of one of one geniuses seems contra the entire egalitarian project of broadening the variety of acts & styles approached in their own terms I associate w ilx at its least toxic but “sorry for being rude about it”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3K6FPzY18

Matt clearly established a context — as a pop performer Charli and her genuine interests seem entirely in control of her changes in s musical style and shifts in career approach. The principle of auteur theory is that Hitch can be determined to have recurring motifs, preoccupations and approaches across his oeuvre despite a changing array of writers and composers and gaffers and cameramen and board artists, not that he (or he and Alma) wrote, produced, boarded, shot, directed, lit, developed and edited every frame him/themself.

not saying I would use the term myself, but deej you didn’t engage with / argue against the premise, you just rolled into the thread to piss on someone for expressing enthusiasm about the thread’s subject

Idk if that’s directed at me but I said the auteur part is the one I agree with

“ I can’t think of another genius level auteur operating in this genre/domain.”

I guess if you define genre/domain absurdly narrowly I agree, but idk, I don’t even think this is the best pop album released the day it came out personally (Tems). My opinion as far as that goes isn’t what’s important in this thread, I’m feeling defensive abt the notion that this project is in some rarified ‘genius level auteur’ air … I’m not even hating on this album tbh happy for the stans

Sometimes it's fun to just post

Well, I love Charli way too uncritically, and I said a dumb thing, but at least there was some interesting discussion. In conclusion, ilx rules.

I have found it an interesting question to think about, but it’s also bound up with my fears that my (waves hands about in the air) general scepticism about hyperpop being a genuinely new thing is just about me growing old

I haven't heard the album but I can't stop playing "Apple". It's so good/dumb

new fav on this is “sympathy is a knife”

on the whole i think i like the tracks where the vocals are more distorted/manipulated

seems possibly relevant that she references her husband by his first name multiple times? is there much precedent for that in pop music?

The Lorde remix reminds me of Human League, with the subject of the first verses responding.

Does this feel closer to articulating a contemporary notion of INDIE SLEAZE than anything else. I can’t help but wonder if that’s part of the appeal (a void The Dare certainly couldnt do enough abt)

funny that you ask because the bonus track that the Dare produced is the first time I haven't hated something he's done

Im putting that in a kind of dumbed down way but its closer to that kind of post electroclash dirtbaggy cobrasnake vibe to me than anyone else really trying it rn

Heh, thought this was interesting re: her relationship to auto-tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ1Io84s9cM

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/commentary-charli-xcx-pop-girl-moment-brat-lorde-1235045384/

I feel like I’ve been reading “this is her breakthrough album” for every album she has ever released.

This could actually be it though

It could potentially hang on for a third week in the Billboard top 10 which is...crazy

Btw I was looking for her other albums and couldn’t find them by looking at their cover until I noticed she changed all her album covers in the same style as brat on spotify. That’s kind of funny.

I think this probably is her breakthrough album, which I think reflects a whole bunch of shifts and alignments in the surrounding cultural context.

There's a full-fledged scene of post-hyperpop Pop music (this is an awkward framing but you probably know what I mean - actual pop singers who are drawing on hyperpop sonics and vibes while also presenting themselves at least notionally as being potential pop stars) that did not exist to the same extent even 2 years ago and which in particular is now the clearly dominant brand of queer-aligned pop - and Charli (perhaps ironically) benefits from the fact that none of Kim Petras or Slayyyter or Shygirl or Tove Lo or etc. are really convincing as Top Tier pop stars - the fact of there being so many followers supports the inference that Charli must be a leader. I feel like some of the investment in her right now is, like, people trying to work out which AI company they should buy shares in.

I find some of the "ahead of the curve" / "future-forward" narratives that constantly get trotted out (see the rolling stone feature above for example) kind of irritating, both because I'm not persuaded that the last ten years of people trying to make pop songs that sound like Alter Ego or Ewan Pearson tracks from the mid-00s really merits that description (though some of it sounds great, to be clear) and because there's a real Pascalian "if I keep saying it over and over again like a mantra, maybe I and others will start to believe it" desperation vibe to this framing. Like, if we don't all agree to accept that framing, why are we spending so much time listening to and talking about this stuff?

Seemingly the fact that this is just a really catchy and fun and danceable and memorable pop album is insufficient.

(before everyone jumps in with the fact checking, obviously all the above artists I mention were making music two years ago, but there's a much bigger primed-audience to receive Brat now than there was to receive something broadly equivalent like Kim's Slut Pop two years ago, though the people who were wandering around quoting Kim's "Treat Me Like A Slut" then probably comprise(d) the core nucleus of the much bigger group who are now wandering around declaring "I'm so Julia")

idk that most of those acts you list really have much to do with hyperpop or that it's the dominant brand of queer-aligned pop - just look at chappell roan. i also don't really think petras' slut pop is equivalent at all to brat, it was doing a different and ultimately much more niche thing (being absurdly vulgar to the point of being one-note)

i think it just helps a lot that this is really charli's first album to be playing to her strengths while having a proper promotional campaign behind it, and she's spent a long time building up a cult fanbase by being really good at what she does, while continuing to have a minor hit every now and then. if pop 2 had been released as a proper album with a full promotional campaign (presumably leading to "unlock it" being a minor hit) then she might have had this sort of breakthrough moment earlier, idk

For what is worth several lines in the album are very explicit about her doubting her relevance and the anxieties of a pop career tip-toeing between “famous, but not quite”

Examples:

“Should I stop my birth control?
’Cause my career feels so small
In the existential scheme of it all”

“I used to never think about Billboard
But, now, I’ve started thinking again
Wondering ’bout whether I think I deserve commercial success”

“Guess I'm a mess and play the role
Used to live just for the party, door is open
I'm famous but not quite
But I'm perfect for the background
Onе foot in a normal life”

dominant != sole. I would of course not suggest that there is any one type (or even a small number of types) of pop music that can be described as "queer-aligned".

Also I definitely am not trying to defend either the quality or commercial prospects of Slut Pop. I would say that that release had an outsized impact on the same audience which appear broadly responsible for promoting "brat supremacy" online.

the genius entry on "Sympathy Is A Knife" (which I love) is pretty funny with respect to both the positioning of charli as an innovator and her insecurity vis a vis her status as a pop star:

"Charli is successful, but she’s not on the same level as Taylor, one of the most awarded and commercially successful musicians ever. Taylor’s exceptional status means no artist should feel bad they don’t have her numbers, and her music is more focused on mainstream appeal whereas Charli prides herself on avant-garde innovation, but insecurity is often irrational. As Charli says, she doesn’t know why she feels so strongly."

I dont think chappell roan is in the silo tim's describing at all, that's its own thing entirely

Charli prides herself

Anyone going to San Antone?

fantastic album. first super iconic album of the summer to feel like it's genuinely crossing over in a while. i pray this is puts the final nail in the dua lipa/espresso disco-house sound

there are a few moments where the 1975 influence really leapt out at me. the intros of 'talk talk' (particularly the guitar lick that echoes in and out) and 'girl', basically all of 'apple'

love (and relate to) the plainly earnest lyrics on 'i think about it all the time'

i'm concerned that '365' will influence many young girls to do cocaine. but it's a great song

recently moved into a new place across the street from two night clubs. i heard 'sympathy' and 'von dutch' from my bedroom last night :)

i pray this is puts the final nail in the dua lipa/espresso disco-house sound

i'm tired of it too, but 'illusion' goes pretty hard imo

it kinda feels like an electro-house revival moment?

charli xcx that is

like dr luke era kesha sounds really good with it

xp ya they're all good songs but its just tired https://ddrake.substack.com/p/disco-and-techno-are-boring

obviously it worked out for her from a career pov but dua lipa starting out with 'new rules'--which had that really cool kinda dancehall drop in the chorus plus some tropical house touches--seemed poised to bring in some new sounds, but instead regressed into disco hole

dua lipa album defender here but i don’t really think her new record is very disco at all. sabrina carpenter’s sound is obv very tired and pale. not sure i’d put it in direct opposition with charli’s recent work bc it sounds like “the wackier pop music is better than the straightforward pop music” which is a thesis i reflexively disagree with, but also i don’t like this record and find it difficult to articulate why

fwiw (thnx for the link flopson) I think the problem I describe there was kind of wrapping up already in some ways—its a complaint about the streaming era, but the last year or so things have really shifted & acts like Chappell Roan have managed to garner careers off the more 'random' seeming personality-driven whims of short form video content aka reels/tiktok, which have really taken over in terms of breaking new acts from the streaming playlisting that led to the 'aesthetic glut' of nu-disco (or rod wave type music, or griselda type music, or etc.)