NY Times on DFA and post-punk

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Two articles by Neil Strauss.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/24/arts/music/24POPL.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/23/arts/music/23PROD.html

Thoughts?

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

"Like most of the label's releases, it came in an odd format: as a 12-inch vinyl single."

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 24 October 2002 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

HA HA

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 October 2002 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn, that's odd. Curious even!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 October 2002 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

As soon as something is written about in the NY Times, it's over.

hstencil, Thursday, 24 October 2002 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

... the 12" vinyl single will never catch on now.

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, and that dancing fad? Out the window!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

exactly. just what happened to grunge.

*ducks*

hstencil, Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, and that dancing fad? Out the window!

But I just bought my dancing shoes!

Seriously though, for the typical NY Times reader, of course the 12" single is "odd."

More from the "NY Publication Kills a Scene" File: I heard a few weeks ago that the New Yorker is working on a piece on Lightning Bolt.

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I just saw that article today and thought, "Oh, there's that Electroclash again that they're always talking about on ILM." Really. Though I'm not so far out of it to consider the 12" vinyl single some sort of curiosity.

RS, Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

You can never ever overestimate how many people have not yet heard of that thing you consider to be so passe.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

NY Times readers have never heard of 12" vinyl singles -> they are unfrozen cavemen lawyers

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you, Andy. That was a good thought to read on my way to lunch. :-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 October 2002 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

You know what I mean Andy.

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i just read this on the subway. hah! i kinda feel sorry for the nyt music section. i mean, given their length restrictions, their massive and mainstream audience, etc., i don't know how much i can blame them for their coverage or lack thereof

geeta (geeta), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i dunno, i just imagine the writers begging their editors "b-b-but boss, i wanna write an article about what the kids call the "rock n roll" music! i can't bring myself to write another article about the new york philharmonic!" or whatevah

geeta (geeta), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

But the Times Arts section is supposed to be going all Britney now. Much hooha about that recently. Not much evidence of it yet.

I'm not specially a Neil Strauss fan, but I do think it's good that someone can write a long article about people as obscure as DFA for the Times. Personally, I wouldn't have run it (it was boring), and I should pretty much be the target audience for a piece like that in the Times.

Anyway, they have Kelefah Senna and he is excellent. More Kelefah please.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

You know what I mean Andy.

I fell on some ice and later I was thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me. I know not what you speak of.

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I stopped reading once I got to the paragraph where he said Erase Errata are from New York (uhm, they're from San Francisco...)

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

You pretend that 12-inch single consumer releases are not an "odd format" for the bulk of NYT readers and really the bulk of the entire universe = you are even more behind than the unfrozen caveman lawyer!

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

you are even more behind than the unfrozen caveman lawyer!

SNAP!

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I stopped reading once I got to the paragraph where he said Erase Errata are from New York (uhm, they're from San Francisco...)

PEDANT ALERT! OAKLAND*

*this is subject to debate but I'd have to namedrop so I'll just settle with just saying "OAKLAND".

gygax!, Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

"New York Times readers" and "New York Times readers who are into music enough to read an article like that one" are two very different categories. I reckon at least half the people who have read that article are at least familiar with the phrase "12-inch single".

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I stopped reading once I got to the paragraph where he said Erase Errata are from New York (uhm, they're from San Francisco...)

I thought I'd heard they recently moved to NY.

I'm glad someone posted these articles. I thought Neil Strauss did his usual yeoman-like job. About once every 6 months, the NY Times will report on some "music of interest." I'm sure my mom will cut this out for me like she usually does. Heh.

Aaron W, Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I bet Aaron's mom knows what a 12" single is.

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"New York Times readers" and "New York Times readers who are into music enough to read an article like that one" are two very different categories. I reckon at least half the people who have read that article are at least familiar with the phrase "12-inch single."

Well sure there are two different categories. And Strauss' sentence isn't claiming that a 12" single is some rarity. He's just saying that it's "odd" for a label to gain popularity through that format these days.

When I first saw that the Rapture had released a 12" single I was surprised. Am I a frozen caveman lawyer?

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought I'd heard they recently moved to NY.

you may very well know something that I don't; however, they played here last month to kick off/warm up their European tour...

so the question is:
why would they fly from New York to SF for a tour kick-off/warm-up show then fly to Germany? Frequent flier miles?

gygax!, Thursday, 24 October 2002 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah - what gygax said.

Hanging out with Sonic Youth does not make you "from New York."

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

so the question is:
why would they fly from New York to SF for a tour kick-off/warm-up show then fly to Germany? Frequent flier miles?

I noticed that too when I visited their homepage, so I very well could be wrong... but somewhere in the addled recesses of my mind (right next to my 12" single collection) I _seem_ to recall _someone_ telling me they had or were moving to NYC.

And actually, I'm not sure if my Mom knows what a 12" single is. Maybe she could settle the argument for us?

Aaron W., Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, ask her dude!

my mom definitely doesn't know.

geeta (geeta), Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

They aren't bad pieces, but they're a long way from good.

It's so bizarre that the Times critic least beholden to pragmatic user-friendliness is Herbert Muschamp, whose flights of fancy and theory-fetish re architecture deal with multi-million-dollar uber-functional public projects, while the totally ephemeral realm of music gets treated like hard news data.

Kalefa Sanneh's the lone exception music-wise: Pretty much every time he writes he shows that exposition and ideas don't need to be mutually exclusive, even in a short space.

Andy, Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I could make many, many jokes about 12" singles and your moms, but I'm going to hold off in the name of good taste.

hstencil, Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Neil Straus seems to have only two modes: boring/faceless stuff he does for the NYT and breathless/too-hip first person wannabe-gonzo I-got-to-hang-out-with-a-musician stuff with which he made a (bad) name for himself back in the day.

wl (wl), Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I could make many, many jokes about 12" singles and your moms, but I'm going to hold off in the name of good taste.

I deserve it! I realized I had set someone up perfectly two seconds after that last post.

I'll let you know what she sez...

Aaron W., Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I have to say, I very often enjoy the way the Times reports on music as "news" as opposed to just music: this article was less about what records are worth listening to and more just about what's going on in New York right now. I also appreciate that it was able to give me a lot of the expository and contextual stuff other things I read don't have access to -- history, interviews with the primaries, picture of the studio.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(In other words, I don't think you have to be interested in music at all to get something out of that article -- it's just a news story on some notable and interesting things some local guys are doing. An equivalent article about some art form I don't particularly follow -- modern dance, for instance -- would need to read about like that for me to really enjoy it, and I don't see anything wrong with offering the same thing in a musical context.)

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

While a good portion of the Times music reporting does bother me, I agree with you hear, nabisco.

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

hear = here

Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 24 October 2002 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah! I totally forgot to mention my fav part about music reporting in the Times is their strict adherence to their style guide, which says that you refer to people as Mr., Ms. or Mrs.

Nothing better than reading "Ms. Love," "Mr. Rotten," "Mr. Jagger," etc. etc.

Aaron W., Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

it was an ok piece for what it was. it wasn't great, but come on, do you expect 750-word scene summaries like that one to be stunning or insightful to anyone who's got a clue?

shit, i'm so bummed out about culture in general these days that seeing the raincoats getting namechecked in mainstream publications again inspires a feeling of relief in me.

also 'danger! high voltage!' is pretty much my single of the year.

i don't really like kelefah sanneh's pop criticism so much. that interpol review where he compared them to the strokes the whole time was INFURIATING, not to mention lazy to the nth degree, and i think his writing and analyses err on the wrong side of the bland spectrum.

maura (maura), Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Ugh, I knew I misspelled Kelefa Sanneh's name. But so did Andy.

(And Maura. And Maura, you're wrong! ;)

Ben Williams, Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

also 'danger! high voltage!' is pretty much my single of the year.

Just wait till you see the video!

http://electric6.com/multimedia/index.shtml

(be warned, it's a huge file)

Aaron W, Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm wrong about the spelling, yes. i kinda thought i was. but the rest, i stick by.

maura (maura), Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

the NYT is the one thing i read on a daily basis (mostly because i have to) and it's nice to see something about bands, some of which i like, buried between the financial news and the 'circuits' section.

For those of you who like sanneh so much, what are some of your favorite pieces by him? i've read several, but none of them really click with me. what's the fuss about? I have access to everything he's ever written for the Times (yay lexisnexis access) so tell me what to read that impresses you guys so much.

And i don't really know how a paper as old and grey and dowdy as the Times can really win when it comes to covering music. if they cover stuff that's "hip" they are uncool poseurs/rockists. if they cover stuff that's "pop" then people say they're wannabe popists/condescending/tokenist. if they cover the stuff they're expected to cover for their older demographic, like bob dylan or the rolling stones, then people say they're boring, bland, and get-with-the-times-granddad.

One thing i think they really need is a dedicated "music" section, instead of this "arts" crap.

geeta (geeta), Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

One thing i think they really need is a dedicated "music" section, instead of this "arts" crap.

I think it's called the Village Voice. Thank you, thank you, here all week.

But seriously folks, it's funny how they _do_ occasionally have a music section but it's devoted only to classical and jazz. How much more old & grey could they POSSIBLY get?? God love em. Only newspaper I ever read either.

Aaron W., Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

devoted only to classical and jazz? do you get the same paper i do? sure there's less pop/rock coverage than there is in the voice, but it is there pretty much every day. i think geeta's point is really astute - the times, to some people, is sorta damned no matter what it does.

i mean, there are so many worse, nightmarish even, scenarios out there -- try the washington post's business reporter turned music critic, david segal, or dan 'headphones' aquilante of the ny post. i may not care much for sanneh, but i don't really get the derision that's being thrown around here either.

maura (maura), Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

My favorite Sanneh thing was his Aaliyah obit. Other good things: big piece on Aphex Twin's new album/electronica trends in general, big thing on ragga tours, Eminem thing for the New Yorker. He's just broadened their coverage a lot, and I think he's very smart. Plus a good writer. Sure, not a wildly original stylist or anything, but I personally don't put a big premium on that and this is the Times, anyway. I don't know about his writing on rock, I don't read that.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan Aquilante is a god! I love him.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 24 October 2002 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

devoted only to classical and jazz? do you get the same paper i do? sure there's less pop/rock coverage than there is in the voice, but it is there pretty much every day.

I guess I wasn't clear. Sure they cover pop and rock, but put them under the Pop and Rock superhead. Music, however, is for classical and jazz. Just that they make such a ghetto-ized distinction is hilarious. Maybe they do this less or I'm not paying attention or something, but I'm pretty sure I've noticed it. Or something. I'm tired.

Just noticed that Simon Reynolds wrote about British rap earlier in the week ("The British Can't Rap, Haven't You Heard?"). Did anyone post/see this?

http://nytimes.com/2002/10/20/arts/music/20REYN.html

Aaron W., Thursday, 24 October 2002 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Sanneh's piece on Jay-Z in The New Yorker's 2001 music issue (it's reprinted in the Da Capo Best Music Writing 2002 book) is excellent--as much a business story as a music story. He can be a bit pedantic at times (and at the Times), but more often than not it works in his favor, especially when he's doing introductions-to-genres-the-Times-audience-has-never-heard-of. (And Nabisco was dead fucking on the spot re: how pieces like these work around the paper's strictures.)

Plus I have to give it up to anyone who not only voted for Superlongevity in last year's P&J poll but placed it second as well.


M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 October 2002 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Then we all agree. The New York Times needs me now more than ever. Wait until I blow the lid off the seedy cabaret scene in the big apple.( Bobby Short better watch out! ) And watch for my special bi-weekly feature: Watching music videos with Scott! First up:Twyla Tharp and Billy Joel on the collected works of the Cash Money Millionares!

Scott Seward, Thursday, 24 October 2002 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Did I miss something or did he write an entire post-punk article without mentioning Joy Division? Maybe he was trying not to be obvious.

David Allen, Friday, 25 October 2002 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Aaaaarrrrggghhhhh! "the grittier, more politicized London groups" from Sheffield, Leeds, Bristol and Manchester...

Leo Lonergan (Leo), Friday, 25 October 2002 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, so last night I asked my mom if she had read the article on DFA in the New York Times from the day before. She said that she had skimmed through it because it seemed kind of interesting. So then I asked her if she had noticed the part saying, '12" single, an odd format,' and when she heard the term '12" single' what it meant to her.

Her reaction was, 'it sounds like something that you were doing,' meaning my old record label from several years ago (I did in fact put out a couple 12" singles). SO, having a priori knowledge, she had some indication what it was. Talking to her more, however, she started talking about old jazz records, 78s, and her 45s. The more I pried, the less it turned out she actually knew about 12" singles, because after all they came into being in the '80s (well after she had stopped buying records). I think the key part about them is that they are a format geared toward DJs, which she had no awareness of and is what makes them a supposedly "odd format."

So, once I told her why I asking, she said, "Well yeah, the only people who listen to records are old farts like me with my record collection and people your age."

Ergo, the average "older" NY Times reader would probably have no idea what a 12" single is, but a "younger" one probably would.

Does this help? Probably not. But I feel that the cause of scientific inquiry has been served!

Aaron W, Friday, 25 October 2002 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, well, I reckon most people who were somewhat into music during the '80s bought a 12" single at one point or another. (Blue Monday wasn't just picked up by DJs, for instance.) There must be a good number of thirtysomethings reading the NY Times.

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 25 October 2002 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd never heard of DFA before I read this thread --> the articles. I now know a little more than I did. Thank you Yancey.

Jeff W (Jeff W), Friday, 25 October 2002 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Just noticed that Simon Reynolds wrote about British rap earlier in the week ("The British Can't Rap, Haven't You Heard?"). Did anyone post/see this?

I read Reynolds' article and it interested me enough to listen to that Streets album. I thought the record was quite bad, though. I'll probably give it another listen just to see, but the article definitely made it sound more interesting than it is.

^Diego^ (dhadis), Friday, 25 October 2002 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

what's with you jackasses?
sure, it isn't strange when the singles are the psytrance 12"s overflowing out of the shit-bins at breakbeat science... but it's unusual when bands like LIARS, the rapture, radio 4, out hud, !!! start releasing 12" singles with the intent that a dj will drop one on the platter and people will actually dance to it

ok, so maybe it won't be unusual for long...

coelcanth, Friday, 25 October 2002 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

coelcanth perches on clams

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

do u SEA??

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

but it's unusual when bands...start releasing 12" singles with the intent that a dj will drop one on the platter and people will actually dance to it

Oh, you mean like the Hall n' Oates 12" single to "Say it Isn't So" with extra remixes from the 1980s that I own?

hstencil, Friday, 25 October 2002 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Call me crazy, but I don't find it all that odd that bands with dance rhythms are releasing music in a format suitable for DJs.

I can just see it now... a series of 12" remix singles released by Tortoise... maybe one will have a remix by a house DJ...

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Odd 10. a. Differing in character from what is ordinary, usual, or normal; out of the ordinary course; extraordinary, strange.

What is ordinary and normal is that stuff gets released on compact discs that millions of people buy: there is nothing insane about noting that 12-inch singles are not, in fact, a medium that the average American will ever in his or her life deal with.

But could we maybe stop talking about whether or not it's appropriate to call the 12-inch single an "odd" format? It's absolutely pointless and has nothing to do with the thrust of the article.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, like why don't we all talk about how bad Pony was?

hstencil, Friday, 25 October 2002 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Apologies, folks.

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 25 October 2002 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

haha since when does breakbeat science sell trance?

jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 25 October 2002 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...
Hi, I just wanted to follow up that the New York Times/Aaron W's claim that Erase Errata had relocated to NYC from OAK is false.

gygax!, Thursday, 14 November 2002 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks gygax... I probably got the moved-from-CA-to-NY mixed up with !!!. Fucking nu-post-punk bands are all the same... My bad!

Aaron W, Friday, 15 November 2002 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)


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