Why I (Don't) Love Country Music

DESTROY: Shania Twain and Faith Hill and all other country-pop crossover acts.

i like country music. i like the voices: a good southern voice -- johnny cash, say -- is the closest america gets to the kind of patina good british vocalists bring to their songs. i like the subject matter, for the most part. at its best, country finds some quite ingenious ways to tackle the same topic: they've got to when they've been covering the same ground for about 100 years now. i like the instrumentation, the pedal steel, the strings, the backing vocals, etc.

and those reasons i like country are probably the same reasons why someone else hates it. the voices are too twangy; the subject matter is too white trash; the instrumentation is too syrupy or countrified (i'm not a big fiddle man, myself). i've only fairly recently gotten into country, despite having grown up with a mama who listened to little more than country...though maybe that's the reason right there. for those trying to get into country, i recommend the usual suspects: glen campbell, george jones, willie nelson, johnny cash, merle haggard, etc. once you get the taste for it, you might want to try roy acuff, lefty frizzell, hank williams, porter wagoner, the carter family and so on.

I like a bit of alt.country, by the way.

BTW, as I've said elsewhere, I don't think Shania Twain (who I like) has much to do with country music (which I also like). It might be where she started, but she's in another place by now.

I think part of the reason that a lot of people distance themselves from country music is that it doesn't represent their own experience, and possibly it's a subconscious decision to distance yourself from the people that one assumes to listen to country (yokels, rednecks, whatever). Of course, that assumption is generally false, because country has a reasonably broad audience comprised of people from all segements of society...it's not just a rural vs. city thing, or a rich vs. poor thing, or a good-taste vs. trash thing (whatever that means), but I think that subconsciously a lot of people bring this into the mix. I brought up a contentious point on the Electronica vs. Country thread, that country music was theoretically about the rural experience. Others countered that country is updating with the times to reflect the suburban citydweller more these days. I think that country's wider acceptance in the mainstream these days has a lot to do with this, but country still has a lot of baggage to shake off before people will stop appeanding the dreaded "...except country."

I like country music, but that really depends what you mean by country. If you're talking about the modern Nashville song-factory country music, I have very little use for that. Classic material from people like Kitty Wells, Hank Williams, etc., and I appreciate it quite a bit, even if I don't necessarily have a lot of it in my collection. People like Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson I also have a great respect for. For the modern stuff, I really prefer people that are a throwback to the troubadour, outside the industry, like Steve Earle or Jimmie Dale Gilmore. I also really love Emmylou Harris, even though she was part of the machine for a while, because she's such a great interpreter of other people's work....and she always had a thing for the outsider as well (witness her work with Gram Parsons, and more recently with Earle).

For me, certain segements of the country music world connect with me emotionally much more deeply than anything in any of the other genres. In country, you can sing a sad hurting song and it sounds true, and a lot of people recognize themselves in it. Do it in country or pop and people just think you're gloomy. I still like the Smiths and the Cure, but a good country song always rings just so much more true.

Interesting side note: I used to live on the Canadian prairie, and country wasn't anywhere nearly as despised as it seems to be in the rest of the world (or at least in the big cities). In fact, it used to be a badge of honour to have a Black Sabbath tape in the deck and a Waylon Jennings tape on the dash. Has anyone else notice a link between heavy metal and country fans in rural areas?

As a causal (at best) listener, along with the obvious (cash, cline, g. jones, louvin brothers, carter family, williams sr.), I'd search the Columbia Country Collections are decent low-price introductions (e.g. Vol ume 1 features the Carter Family, Bob Willis, Bill Monroe and the like.)

Generally speaking, I tend to think that if it's bad AOR with twangs, it's not worth spit. I have soft spots for the likes of Willie Nelson, though scarily enough I grew up hearing Kenny Rogers more. Eep! Patsy Cline, Dolly Parton, George Jones, Hank Williams, Merle -- all amazing when at their best. Buck Owens would be in there but for all the idiocy on _Hee-Haw_ dragging him down for eons.

And, of course, Johnny Cash. He deserves mention by himself.

Why? *thinks* Hard to say in my case. It almost just is, if you will.

Anyway, about a year ago I just happened to be watching this Shania Twain TV special concert and I couldn't help but think there was something very fammiliar about the sound of this music. A few songs went by and some backups vocals tipped me off: Def Leppard!!! Come to find out that not only did Mutt Lange produce and co-write songs for Shania Twain, but he's married to her also. (BTW, as much as she sucks musically, she is downright one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen.) There's your ling between country and metal right there. Does anyone else find this disconcerting? The fact that they they've taken something that was taboo/satanist/noise (Def Lep) to parents in the 80s and fed it back to them in virtually the same form 15 years later in the form of the more palatable (and visually pleasing) Shania Twain. I heard some of her record and a lot of it sounded just like Def Lep with the guitars turned down and a girl singing. Although Joe Elliott (is that his name?) kinda always sounded like a woman to me. Not to take away anything from Def Lep, of course. I like Pyromania.

All these recommendations are very helpful. When did Nashville start getting 'bad'?

Too much of the alt-country does seem overly referential and reactionary, and it's one instance in which I'd place some blame on the fans, the ones who have adopted "no depression" as a rallying cry and hurl it like a weapon at Jeff Tweedy and those they feel have abandoned the "scene."

Anybody have any good "newgrass" albums to search? Hmm. I like some of Alison Krauss' more recent stuff, most notably So Long, So Wrong. Also really like Bad Livers' Hogs on the Highway and Delusions of Banjer. The new Luther Wright and the Wrongs is also worth a laugh: they reinterpret part one of Pink Floyd's The Wall completely in bluegrass style. Probably doesn't have much replay value, though. At the very least, the flash intro on their website is priceless.

Dwight Yoakum is an interesting example. I've heard the press touting him as "the real deal", but have only heard _This Time_ (about 3 albums ago), which manages to mix solid songwriting with the goopy sort of shit that passes for modern Nashville production.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Scud Mountain Boys (the group that begat the Pernice Brothers). Slow, somber, cry-in-your-beer sort of stuff that's sorta country. More due to the execution than the actual songs - pedal steel, acoustic strumming, brushed drums. One song, "Grudge F***" (off their best & slooooowest album, _Massachusetts_), could've been made into a arena-rock power-ballad SO easily. I'm speaking in terms of "Love Hurts"-type stuff here.

There's also Ida, a New York trio/quartet that COVERS stuff by the Carter Family ("Are You Tired of Me, My Darling?") & Bill Monroe ("Blue Moon of Kentucky") on a regular basis. When they're not covering Brian Eno or Prince. Always with pristine three-part harmonies that'd shame most church choirs. But I'm not the most biased person when it comes to discussing their work.

For the historians, there's that Smithsonian box-set of field recordings & such that was released a couple of years ago - the Anthology of American Folk Music, I think it's called. 6 CDs worth. Features songs by the Carter Family, Dock Boggs, & some old blues folks as well. I haven't actually listened to this yet (though I'll have to return my copy to the library tomorrow), but the general word on it is that it's amazing.

That certainly is a convenient and rather obvious association to make, but in my experience it is definitely not the case. In fact, the only people I know who like country music are the sorority girls who drive around campus in their Jeeps, blaring it and singing along.

What I hate about modern Nashville country, I think, is the sheer dullness of it. Ned put it well: "AOR with twangs." I'm from Virginia, and the adults who listen to country here are just yuppies who want to feel a little more "Suh-than," a little more "Vuh-GEEN- yuhn" than the yuppies who like Bruce Hornsby and Annie Lennox.

And, regarding class and music, most "rednecks" I know listen to Classic Rock. The whole idea of country being poor people playing ukeleles around the campfire trying to smile through hard times is, I think, quite a bit off.

Mackaye is wrong: you aren't, and you are... There are worse crutches than Loretta Lynn.

Solace isn't found only in lyrics.

Clarke - I don't associate country with rednecks or poor southern whites or whatever, but I've heard a lot of country haters use those stereotypes to justify their attitude towards the music. I think that's why the stereotype was brought up on this thread. It's true that the country audience is mostly suburban now.

It'd be cool if more people who dislike country would post on this thread.

Also, it seems that we can all agree that *good* country is *old* country. I almost think of Willie, Waylon, etc. as a different genre from LeAnn Rimes, Brooks & Dunn, and so on. Does anybody like any country by someone under 50 who hasn't played in a punk band?

This is an interesting question for me, because what bothers me about mainstream country is EXACTLY what bothers me about (some) contemporary mainstream pop: I just can't stand the slick studio sound.

I think a lot of why people love the good, old country is how awesome that stuff sounded. Patsy Cline, Hank Senior, old George Jones, the Sun Studio recordings...perhaps from hearing this stuff used in music so on, we're accustomed to the idea that sound from that time and place evokes a certain mood.

Probably the biggest thing about Country from any era is how much is has rejected any sort of black influence. This makes it very different from the mainstream pop in recorded history. I know, Hank liked to listen to the Blues guys, but you just don't hear it in his music.

This kind of undercuts that "I don't like country and rap" thing, I guess.

Yeah, *something* in this — maybe, somewhat, EXCEPT: (a) steel guitar comes from blues (and before that, from Hawaii); (b) country drumming comes jazz via western swing, which is what it says. And (c) those spooky falsetto glides – Elvis, Chris Izaak, YOU know – that's blues.

Hmmm, country didn't always avoid black music as fervently as it does now. Think western swing, think hillbilly boogie (there really was such a thing !), think 20s music, when country and blues (and folk and gospel) would bleed into each other so much that it's sometimes hard to tell what's what.

For whoever asked - I don't like country music, particularly the new kind. But I've found myself liking more of the stuff on its fringes over the past couple years - just haven't gotten around to buying enough to really investigate. If I did I bet I would end up liking a lot of older country as in this thread (though I have more of a distaste for the rinky-dink-er stuff, maybe - something in the rhythms).

If Mimi Parker of Low records a country album as has been rumored I will snap it up like that.

The main reason Country is considered beyond the pale (apart from any problems with the music itself eg 'twangs', fiddles, mundane chord progressions/rhythms, and cloying lyrics) is the culture it's associated with - reactionary and quite possibly racist (both things that 'liberal' people don't want to be tagged with, which is ultimately why they steer clear of the genre). Alt-Country is, I presume, an attempt to reclaim the roots Country music, fusing it with other styles (and more importantly distancing itself from the right-wing culture of mainstream Country).

Personally I dislike most of what I've heard of it (Country), although I'm probably quite infected by the stereotypical view of it that's been around since the 60's and 70's. And because in its original form it means nothing to me I have no interest in recontextualising it.

It does seem that country used to be open to greater influence (Western Swing, early blues influence, Sun Records)---maybe this is why the old stuff is more intersting? Less "purist"?

As also mentioned in the best of genre thread, my favourite classic country song is 'Hello Walls' by Faron Young (written by Wille Nelson). It's lonely loser narrative, where the guy is cracking up after his wife leaves him, literally talking to his house, is so ludicrously simplistic that you have to laugh. But the lonliness within feels real and sincere, exactly because of the simplicity. It sums up all the best elements of traditional country in one huge cliche of a song. I guess my reasoning means that I like it ironically, but what of it? I'm self concious about this stuff now thanks to you lot! ;) Ironic acceptance is like a door half open. I feel no shame...

As for alt country, I think you have to give someone like Beck a lot of credit for opening up a new audience to these kinds of sounds (even if you don't wanna give him anything else). Lambchop is another one that does some really interesting genre blurring.

Fast forward to now: most country (eg. current Nashville scene) has a rock beat. No idea when this became the norm, always presumed there's some generational shift between the Eagles being perceived as a rock band (ie. not accepted by country people) vs a country-rock band (ie. the greatest, most successful country band ever, a template). And presume money/success/who's-getting-laid aided that transition. But I still don't like it. "It" being the hat acts; the image they cloak themselves in (including the sonics; token fiddles etc) being too - as above - CLOYING, the music... too soft, bland, doesn't connect with me.

Exceptions: recently, Leanne Rimes' (sp?) "Can't Fight the Moonlight" which is swishy Shania-copying AOR-Flashdance-pop. Country? In no way I can hear, other'n she used to be a "country artist" (and I guess even that's being downplayed now: outside North America, Rimes' country associations would likely tar her as too square to compete with Billie/whoever).

Shania: aren't there two versions of COME ON OVER? The USA got the country one, rest of the world got the dance-pop; fiddles taken off, guitars mixed higher? Fave song on it is "Whatever You Do! Don't!": gloomy Donna Summer ca. "Hot Stuff" desperation-disco verses giving way to ringing guitar riff straight out of "Armageddon It" for the chorus. That riff and most of COME ON OVER's guitars played by Dann Huff, ex-Giant, all guitars on Whitesnake's 1987 hit "Here I Go Again."

So, umm, dance-pop/hard rock fusion masquerading as "country" = classic. Country genre = dud.

look, i was just being a little flippant over there in the byrds thread. truth be told i haven't listened to enough good country to really give an opinion, just what i've been exposed to via radio, etc. actually i had to listen to a carter family song and a jimmie rodgers song in a pop music history class this past term and i liked them all right, esp the cf. i liked the totally flat nasal vocals and dead-chunking strums. i think i heard an iris dement song that was ok some seven years ago or so.

i'm not sure why the country i heard always turned me off. grade 5 is the earliest i can remember having a totally decided musical worldview and country wasn't favoured then. i worked in a beautiful national park in alberta one summer and country dominated the one radio station. i started to tolerate it but didn't get to really like it. i think it's the vocal style. it's only recently that i've been able to get into r&b vocals for that matter. it might be the conservative associations, seeing as how i've revealed my bleeding pomo pinko colours already. if someone could point me to a brilliant country guitarist, that might spark my interest enough to give a listen.

i saw ida when they opened for low. they were pleasant but more forgettable than low. i sure don't consider it country.

anyway, i've met a lot more poor people who listen to crass (whom i quite like) than who listen to country.

Surely statistically more poor people listen to Garth Brooks than to Crass ??? As far as the hindustani music thing goes, well you have a point, but I've never heard anyone say "everything but hindustani" when discussing their musical tastes.

Anyway I only have like one CD of music from the Indian subcontinent and I don't know if it qualifies. I do like it a lot but it's hard to know where to go in Indian classical.

I'm surprised at Tom E's initial contention that people say they like everything but country. I thought you were going to say that everyone *likes* country - which is closer to my experience. I think that country is a genre which it seems to be safe for absolutely anyone, in any age range, to like, and still seem cool. (Uh-oh - don't want to revive the 'cool' thread.)

I think of myself as someone who likes country a lot - but as has been pointed out, it comes in so many forms. Carter Family: I can see the importance, but don't find it that enjoyable.

Let me throw in my usual tuppence on the one thing that no-one has quite mentioned: the appeal, or utility, of country to *musicians*. If you're a guitar player, the country detour is a very alluring one, which you may be a while getting back from. (I have never quite figured out what makes 'country guitar', but you know it when you hear it.) And even more so - and more importantly - country is terribly seductive for *songwriters*. Once you have done a stint in some more familiar form of 'pop', country sits there like an ocean of possibility - all its characteristic melodies and their tics and twists, its rhythms, its redemption of simplicity, its rather ready- to-hand authority and weight, its sense of 'tradition' to be tapped, its conventions to be used yet played around with. Stephin Merritt is presumably the clearest example of somebody approaching country like this, but there are probably many others.

In terms of picking, I was thinking not so much of actual finger styles as of types of riff, melodic relationships etc. That's the stuff that I half-know but can't really put my finger on. (eg: what is its relation to the blues scale? What, exactly, is it that differentiates a country solo from a blues solo?) But thanks for the info anyway.

do i win a prize for most boring ILM post ever - coz im tryin'

Daisy and Tracer, I take my cowboy hat off to you. You guys are way too talented and well-informed for me to understand exactly what you're saying.

There are records. Some of the records have Japanoise on them. Some do not. Consumers are allowed to purchase whichever of these their hearts desire. So it could be that one might decide to stop purchasing all those other records and only buy the fine noise products of the Japanese.

I think I am going to go cry now.

No offence, but on my island we spell it 'offence'. And I'm afraid I find your remarks offensive.

My suspicion is that the Pinefox is genuinely out of touch with most contemporary music apart from his own personal favourites - nothing wrong with that, essentially - and plays up to that because he finds it funny, in a mischievous way, to present himself as a "what the young people seem to listen to" caricature. I've known others who played up that aspect of their character. So my answer is that the Pinefox means everything he says, but plays up to the aspects of his character and taste that - often - seem most out-of-place on ILM.

Anyhow, the thing that use to kill me was that every time I went onto a Napster clone, I noticed that each persons mp3 collection consisted of 30% Hip-Hop, 30% Country and 30% something else. I keep expecting some sort of Ghetto&Western genre to sweep the nation. Where everyone comes out on stage wearing their cowboy hats crooked Flava-Flav style.
Yo Yo Yo, MC Cowpoke is in da hooooouuusseee.
Well, maybe not yet.
Y'see, Imani Coppola's "Legend of a Cowgirl" didn't really get the fame it deserved, because she was ahead of her time; But the last time I listened to the country station, I noticed at least two C&W choons with a distinct "rap" cadence to the vocals of the verses.
It won't be long now.