Literate Jazz-Pop TS: Steely Dan vs. Joni Mitchell 1974-1980

I thought about this after listening to Shadows and Light and Aja. Each made five studio albums in this period, combining smart lyrics and melodic craft with some of the best jazz sidemen of the time. (JM also made two live albums. I don't know if that makes it a bit unfair because S&L is some of my favourite work of hers?). Larry Carlton did some of his best work on both artists' albums in this stretch imo.

Anyway, while I enjoy Steely Dan, this is clearly JM for me, based on her peaks. I find her melodies more inventive and compelling, her vocal delivery was stunning, and I love the sound of her chorused rhythm guitar against Jaco's fretless bass and Carlton's (or Metheny's) leads. I haven't really been able to get into Mingus though.

the existence of 'court and spark' makes it overwhelming joni imo even tho it's not as jazz-pop as she'd become on hissing or mingus. her cover of "twisted" is an interesting precursor on the album tho since it features wardell gray on an otherwise weirdo, throwaway album-closer. acc to wiki the "flattened scale degrees adds a jazzy folky sound to" Free Man in Paris, so maybe i'm underselling how much it anticipates the next few years for her. for some reason i'm always inclined to read it in a pairing w/ Blue - happy v sad, jazzy v folk maybe super operative in that dialectic?

If it's 74-76 (Court and Spark/Hissing of Summer Lawns/Hejira vs. Pretzel Logic/Katy Lied/Royal Scam), I think I'd have to give Joni the edge, but I much prefer Aja/Gaucho over Don Juan's Reckless Daughter/Mingus. So: Steely Dan.

btw definitely approve of revival of TS threads that don't use polling

If it's 74-76 (Court and Spark/Hissing of Summer Lawns/Hejira vs. Pretzel Logic/Katy Lied/Royal Scam), I think I'd have to give Joni the edge, but I much prefer Aja/Gaucho over Don Juan's Reckless Daughter/Mingus. So: Steely Dan.

― jaymc, M

"Free Man in Paris" was actually the song that made me think of the comparison.

(Live version prob jazzier than studio version)

i am still getting my feet wet w/ steely dan and i am pretty much in love with joni so this is pretty easy for me, also court and spark is clearly more of a companion to hissing imo, the blue companion is for the roses, which is very much a transitional work and only hints at th jazz pop expansions of court and spark and doesn't wholly predict them

also don juan's reckless daughter is not quite the perfect statements that the preceding three albums are but it is still pretty outstanding imo

sw00ds, Vic Perry, and I talk a long time about Gaucho.

http://rockcritics.com/2015/04/06/steely-dan-podcast-part-three/

I get off the boat with Joni after Hissing so this goes to the Dan

I've given DJRD many chances. It's pleasant and tuneful, and "Paprika Plains" is good second tier Mitchell. But nothing on it surprises or mystifies unless you count the return to the jungle line, and in that case it's like, "Er, why?"

You may be aware that, like Joni Mitchell, we have mounted an exhaustive search for any long lost female love-children of ours who may be out there somewhere, working away in anonymity at some modelling agency or as prospective starlets or whatever. If either one of us strikes paydirt in this department, you can bet that we will not be available for the induction ceremony, any more than Joni was.

it's clearly 5-0 for joni.

Love Court & Spark and some tracks off HOSL and Hejira but overall it's Steely Dan for me.

Joni. And I love "Twisted."

Mingus is better than any Dan record.

Also, I don't think Miles of Aisles fits the framework? It's still mostly folky (it has a pretty definitive version of "The Circle Game") and there's only one song on it from Court & Spark ("People's Parties, iirc, which is probably the closest to a 1970 Joni song on the album).

Challops

Was Alfred agreeing with me upthread?

just looking at this thread title makes me want to post the 'you're tearing me apart' gif from The Room. don't let my two loves argue.

^^^^

could never choose between these two in particular

Mingus is better than any Dan record.

excuse you

Was Alfred agreeing with me upthread?

― Wozniak on Kimye's Baby (jaymc), Friday, February 10, 2017 2:05 AM

yes – sober

Yeah I consider miles of aisles to be more of a "transitional" record even tho the LA express is all over it

"the wolf that lives in lindsey" is an incredible song but i never feel like i'm paying enough attention to mingus when i listen to it, and when i do apply my attention to it i feel like i'm only discerning fragments

that's how I respond to "Paprika Plains."

nah "paprika plains" is an incredible technicolor diorama

it's missing a few colors

whereas on mingus, everything feels like a scribble

"paprika" sort feels like all journey and no destination until u realize the destination is when john guerin and wayne shorter come in, their playing at the end is exquisite

that sentence is kinda mangled but i'm hungover

anyway i will say that jaco's bass curving out of infinite white space on mingus isn't an uninteresting thing to listen to

"paprika" sort feels like all journey and no destination until u realize the destination is when john guerin and wayne shorter come in, their playing at the end is exquisite

― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson),

it's the best part, and Sting listened closely, wrongly.

debates "sting is underrated by those of us who dig Joni" post for the fourteenth year in a row, defers post again

lmao

Brad I consider you potentially the most vulnerable to this claim (which I do mean in earnest, I just mainly keep it to myself). The Soul Cages man. just saying

OTOH I have just learned that in 2010 he released an album called Symphonicities so let the beasts of the open plain gnaw upon his drying bones in the sun

Brad I consider you potentially the most vulnerable to this claim (which I do mean in earnest, I just mainly keep it to myself). The Soul Cages man. just saying

― though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Friday, February 10, 2017 11:11 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you consider rightly

whoa i love the soul cages

especially "the wild wild sea" which seems extremely related to this thread

"All This Time" and "Why Should I Cry For You" are Sting's best two solo songs.

Mad About You is also fucking awesome

you guys saying i should pick me up a copy of The Soul Cages if i see it on cheap vinyl?

It is kinda interesting that there were so few songwriters that both had the ability and ear to go into this area between jazz, pop and rock. There was plenty of instrumentalists that in the same period threaded this needle, but it says something that you get past Joni Mitchell, Steely Dan and later on Sting...that's kinda it. You got Tom Waits, but really he never did 'rock' or a partial permutation of it until he went all junkyard sounding. I suppose you could add someone like George Duke or maybe a jazz musician that had pop hits going the other way like perhaps George Benson, but it's a small list at least off the top of the head. You could even expand and add maybe some pop singers whose background is more in jazz like Al Jarreau or maybe something like Grover Washington Jr.'s collaborations but the jazz/pop/rock area was a horizon few threaded.

lots of great Brazilian artists/records in the 70's that combined great ears and songwriting and jazz and pop and rock.

Yeah, I have read that the Airto and Flora records are cool, but never really heard them except as members of other groups. I'd believe there could be others.

I'd suppose someone like Willie Nelson 'might' qualify a bit as did explore jazz a bit in a pop idiom.

but also, like, soft machine? or robert wyatt. oh lots of people. i dunno, my boundaries for great albums that combine jazz/pop/rock are pretty boundless. so many jazz/fusion/prog/etc albums with nice folk and pop moments. maybe not joni mitchell-level songwriting in every case. but in u.k. and europe mixing and matching was the thing to do.

also i own about 15 michael franks albums and i like them all. and they are all a dollar apiece used!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87FyEyXetFE

Soft Machine/Wyatt is a good call. They kinda lost something when they put Wyatt's vocals off the records and later lost him as a player. There is a bunch of good rock/jazz fusion records that are instrumental, but jazz/rock/pop as song writing is a bit more tricky. I really hadn't heard of this Michael Franks. I figured there would be some I wouldn't know, as I would expect there have to be 'some' soul jazz songwriter/singer types. I'd guess someone like Boz Scaggs would at least border as his tunes use some jazzy feels and chords. There has to be at least a few pretty esoteric songwriter/singers on ECM that i don't know, right?

This 'Monkey See Monkey Do' tune by Michael Franks is a groove. Dig it.

Re: jazz inflections - Battles? Toro y Moi? Dirty Projectors? St Vincent? D'Angelo?

Michael frank is a god

Franks

Think Dory Previn could fit in the discussion, those early 70's records are gorgeous (and devastating). Definitely influenced by Joni, and jazz in her singing (1st record was a jazz album w/Andre).

lots of great Brazilian artists/records in the 70's that combined great ears and songwriting and jazz and pop and rock.

― scott seward, Friday, February 10, 2017 10:24 PM

Caetano!

re:Brazil, Milton Nascimento's Minas is the most perfect blend of MPB and fusion that I know. Edu Lobo's Limite Das Aguas is not far behind.

It is kinda interesting that there were so few songwriters that both had the ability and ear to go into this area between jazz, pop and rock. There was plenty of instrumentalists that in the same period threaded this needle, but it says something that you get past Joni Mitchell, Steely Dan and later on Sting...that's kinda it. You got Tom Waits, but really he never did 'rock' or a partial permutation of it until he went all junkyard sounding. I suppose you could add someone like George Duke or maybe a jazz musician that had pop hits going the other way like perhaps George Benson, but it's a small list at least off the top of the head. You could even expand and add maybe some pop singers whose background is more in jazz like Al Jarreau or maybe something like Grover Washington Jr.'s collaborations but the jazz/pop/rock area was a horizon few threaded.

― earlnash, Saturday, February 11, 2017 3:08 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well Rickie Lee Jones on Pirates was quite specifically channelling both Joni and Steely Dan. Not a huge amount of "rock" in the strong sense but about as much as for Joni.

Emily's D+Evolution definitely hit this spot for me last year.