I admire this more than I like it

In this context the Kamasi Washington triple album was mentioned on ILM's Top 77 Albums of 2015.

I have a hard time finding albums belonging in this category. There are all these "difficult" albums cherished by critics like e.g. "Trout Mask Replica" or "The Marble Index" or "A Love Supreme" which never did a thing for me and which I don't think I admire. Maybe it has to do with age. I cannot admire without loving anymore.

Ok if you'd point a gun to my head I'd say anything by Leonard Cohen. Never loved him but always admired him. For his voice, his songwriting and his effect on women.

PJ Harvey

D'Angelo is my #1 artist in this category. I 100% see why everyone goes crazy for him and I think he's insanely talented but the only thing he's done that I unambiguously, unreservedly like is "Untitled"

D'Angelo is a good call. The music is amazingly intense but I don't really fall for it.

To Pimp a Butterfly

merzbow

nurse with wound

brian ferneyhough

charles ives

Henry Cow

that's been my reaction too, thus far, but i'm sure they'll click

I think David Bowie was this for me, and after he died, I immediately went through his back catalog. Now, I like him a little more, but it's still basically the same phenomenon.

Others: Capt Beefheart (good call), La Monte Young, John Cage, Ornette Coleman -- if I thought about it, a lot of towering figures of modern music, really. There's something about all of the people I named that I find impenetrable, not in a way where I can't understand what's going on, but more like to trying to chew a vitamin pill and actually like the taste.

I cannot admire without loving anymore.

this seems an unadmirable trait tbh

most jazz

most things nakhers recommends

obviously with admiration comes the mandate to persist, and persist I shall

probably Radiohead

radiohead is like an extreme inversion of this proposition lol

Godspeed You! Black Emperor

i kind of feel similarly to d. about bowie although i unreservedly love a few albums.

dj sprinkles / terre thaemlitz, though in his case i feel like it isn't a backhanded compliment but the right way around somehow.

i actually like radiohead way more than i respect or admire them, they're a guilty pleasure i'll indulge in once a year or so.

xp, Radiohead, really? I used to dislike early Radohead (Creep). Then I admired and loved them at the same time (Amnesiac, Hail to the Thief) and then I lost interest.

shamefully I've never really got late-period Scott Walker, even Tilt leaves me cold

brian ferneyhough

― I remember you was vote-splitted (imago), Wednesday, January 27, 2016 8:52 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

most things nakhers recommends

― I remember you was vote-splitted (imago), Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:01 PM (12 minutes ago)

aw, you seemed to like fernsy here blood run cold (a sincere thread)

that wasn't actually a recommendation though, was discussing your veneration of complexity with sarahell, so posted a random bit of ferneyhough with a wacky looking score

i rly enjoyed the experience of it but i never go out of my way to listen to it now - i sometimes think of it with great fondness though

no shade m8, i like your recommendations and i'm striving to become a better listener idk

there is nothing wrong with not liking ferneyhough

you seemed to have a very visceral, jam oriented relation to that piece though

i don't have a lot of interest in 'new complexity' aka notated proncke though it is admirable in its way

I think for a long time I did this all the time, admired things I didn't like. could always be counted on to say something was 'interesting', which peculiarly seems to really be a euphemism for 'not that interesting'. I only really feel this way now abut people I have loved or love who create something that I don't, and will not love.

I felt this way when I first heard the song "Blackstar" - didn't enjoy it all that much but evinced merit in it due to the reverence I have for Bowie.

radiohead is like an extreme inversion of this proposition lol

how so?

xp. used evinced wrong there :/

radiohead is like an extreme inversion of this proposition lol
how so?

― frogbs, Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:28 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

invert the proposition, add an intensifier, that is how imago feels about radiohead

Hendrix. I admire what a guitar pioneer he was, have very little desire to listen to him.

Probably early Sad Lovers And Giants.

gustav mahler, when i'm sober

invert the proposition, add an intensifier, that is how imago feels about radiohead

― jaggered little poll (wins), Wednesday, January 27, 2016 3:30 PM (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ah. oh. got it

Portishead's Third (I admire the utter bleakness, but can't stand it). Unsuk Chin's compositions (super dramatic and abstract, but often chin-scratching).

how about Zappa then? dude was obviously just on a whole different level and had some crazy chops, I just never find myself wanting to listen to one of his albums front-to-back. just like...maybe Hot Rats

yeah i can think of way more things that i like but don't admire than things that i admire but don't like

If I had a record I felt the most this way in 2015, it was definitely Matana Roberts' Coin Coin Chapter 3: Run River Thee. Clearly brilliant but very hard to listen to.

Yeah I'll own up to not listening to CCC3 half as much as the previous installments.

this thread

Magma

japanese psych/improv/loud guitar stuff

Aphex Twin excluding SAW2
Mickey Newbury
Mission of Burma

probably tons more

punk music

I like the idea behind it but I can't stand listening to actual punk bands

death metal

there is loads of music i admire more than like. 'great work', and i can tell the artist put a lot of thought and time into their creation but for me as a listener, i rarely have the stamina or compulsion to listen for extended periods of time.

Lots of shouts in here that I agree with pretty much. Scott Walker is definitely in here. Ornette Coleman. John Coltrane. Elvis Costello too. Beach Boys. Kraftwerk. Bob Dylan is in a similar category, something like "I do not get this at all but so many other people do so there must be something to it". There are lots of records I own out of a sense of duty or history - this is important, this is significant - but that I don't have a personal connection to. Looking at the list, it often seems like stuff from 'before' my time as an active listener that I've gone back to due to it being acclaimed, rather than stuff I've 'organically' (whatever the fuck that means) come into contact with.

Bowie was broadly in this category until he died, but has been moving much more into genuine like since then. Radiohead moved into this category from one labelled "I resent the success and acclaim this gets over other things I like more", and have now wheedled their way into my genuine affections; sometimes you need an event or binge or something else with an artist to change your mind/heart about them. PJ Harvey similarly crossed over a few years ago. SFA too.

I think with some artists I often forget how much I like them in between binges of listening to them; like, I might go a few years without really listening to whoever, and in that fallow period if asked I might say I admired them but didn't love them, but then I'll binge and they'll be my favourite thing.

for me its Mark Stewart (solo + mafia).
i love the on-u sound groove, and so, over the years i have picked up every MS album, but it's very rare i feel like listening to his stuff as opposed to other parts of the on-u archive.
i admire the mans stance, and he should be top of my list.
i even went to see him live with the mafia a few years ago and loved it,
but still, other than his dub release, exorcism of envy,i have yet to really love one of his albums.

Jute Gyte.

most jazz

most things nakhers recommends

― I remember you was vote-splitted (imago), Wednesday, January 27, 2016 4:01 PM (Yesterday)

just curious, what jazz artists (if any) do you listen to for enjoyment?

Think the thing with Beefheart is that people dive straight into Trout Mask Replica when they would be much better off with, say, Mirror Man Sessions.

just curious, what jazz artists (if any) do you listen to for enjoyment?

― small doug yule carnival club (unregistered), Thursday, January 28, 2016 1:23 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

practically nothing

pharaoh sanders i guess, also idk if soft machine's fusion period counts at all

i know i have a way to go here

yes jim in glasgow. I think Coltrane's style is too busy overall. the tunes are definitely there, especially on Giant Steps but it's like he's scribbling all over it. I admire the wildness but I feel like even someone like Ornette is somehow more nuanced or something? Coltrane makes jazz into a sport. I love his vision and his vibe but for 'free' jazz, I find Giant Steps claustrophobic.

Bach just seemed like intellectual games (ala Godel Escher Bach) until it finally clicked while I was watching 32 Short Films about Glenn Gould. Yes, there are inversions, transpositions, recursions and other tricks up Johann's sleeve, but you can also just hum along with it. The foreground is really, tuneful and memorable, its only the instruments/parts often exchange places in the spotlight.

I'm trying to think of acts that fit this description without them falling into 'overrated' or 'idgi'. I'm sure there are lots. maybe Bjork? like, I feel as though I should love her and I certainly like a number of songs, but in rarely in the mood, that's the thing.

Portishead, Massive Attack, lots of slow 90s alterna-pop I guess. I know these are important acts who accomplished great things but their insidious vibes just don't sit right with me. I like dark music. I love dub and hip hop. but these acts just make me feel gloomy.

Joni Mitchell. Although I do genuinely enjoy a number of her songs, overall I feel like she impresses me more than she actually moves or entertains me.

alex in main - its xyzzzz__ not xyzzzz

i know i have a way to go here

― ZESTY O'PRIDE (imago), Thursday, January 28, 2016 6:44 AM (5 hours ago)

are you aspiring to a doctorate in musicology or something? It's okay to not like things.

― sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I thought musicologists only liked certain things that map to certain ideologies, in which case imago...isn't aiming for one.

He should totally try the Merzbox - its all on youtube now, no excuses.

dog latin, try 'coltrane' if you haven't already esp. 'out of this world'

Crescent is a much better gateway album for Coltrane than ALS anyway.

― the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, January 28, 2016 12:43 PM (2 hours ago)

depends on from where that gate is coming from ...

my coltrane gateways were 'soultrane' and 'cattin with coltrane and quinichette'

A Love Supreme is amazing wtf guys

A Love Supreme seems like a token name-drop album for people who've never really listened to any other John Coltrane albums.

You seem like a guy who makes a lot of assumptions

http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Frederik-Pohl_1976_Gateway.jpg?15016e

That long version of Africa Brass with all the extra shit is beautiful, just saying in the name of Trane-repping like and nothing to do with the premise of this thread. Song Of The Underground Railroad absolutely bangs.

a love supreme and kind of blue are probably the two major LPs that non-jazz fans might think of getting to bolster their jazz bonafides but that also doesn't mean they're not worthy of every single accolade.

you forget Bitches Brew

great thread. need to work this out imminently.

i'm not sure about bitches brew but maybe you're right, but i do think KoB is a little more easily digestible (not a criticism) for entry level jazzheads.

xp

weirdly enough kind of blue took me a long time when i was 18 while mingus was just like *pow*

*kabluie*

more like 'kind of blew' at first then

D'Angelo best answer so far.

dj sprinkles is a good answer imho. like i greatly admire a marxist genderqueer who escaped the midwest and djed sex worker bars in manhattan pre-giuliani then moved to tokyo and writes / has written great pieces and gives / has given great lectures / workshops about the culture industry and is a very nice and interesting person to boot. much more than i like his / her artfully constructed and occasionally gorgeous but kind of noodly and, here's the crucial bit for me, pretty unfunky deep house tracks.

i would still jump at the chance to see her dj.

A Love Supreme seems like a token name-drop album for people who've never really listened to any other John Coltrane albums.
You seem like a guy who makes a lot of assumptions

― reggae mike love (polyphonic)

fair enough. how do you rate ALS in comparison to other Coltrane-led albums?

Pussy Riot

good one

agree on dj sprinkles

Can

sonic youth

cosign sonic youth and punk in general too

mattresslessness nothing you say about DJ Sprinkles is wrong but Midtown 120 Blues is still one of the albums I find myself going back to most consistently over the past almost a decade now.

weirdly enough kind of blue took me a long time when i was 18 while mingus was just like *pow*

― bicyclescope (mattresslessness), Thursday, 28 January 2016 23:55 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yep! I'd always recommend Mingus Ah,Um or The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady over either of these for someone who is interested in getting into jazz. So much more fun. I love Kind of Blue but I had to listen to a few other things first before it really clicked.

co-sign Can and Sonic Youth. Both are bands I like the idea of, and hope to one day become some sort of fan but every time I put them on I just lose patience

Co-sign on DJ Sprinkles and most definitely on Scott Walker. More recently: Suzanne Sundfor (and the song she did with M83 >> anything on her solo album).

To me the "admire more than like" applies to Terre Thaemlitz' ambient/experimental/conceptual records released under that name, but not to the material she's done as DJ Sprinkles, which is fairly typical minimal house music, albeit with a political edge. TBH, I'm surprised people would find it difficult or unfunky.

some of the sprinkles records are great, some aren't, this is good. The problem comes from putting all an artists records in one box and then putting a label on that box, this artist is X. when the artist is charismatic or important the playing of the record becomes subconsciously more of a duty, of emotional labour. The good records should be able to cast off this overcoat and skip freely but some become ground down with this weight of importance until silence is prefereable (which it so often is)

Pet Sounds. Obviously influential and I appreciate the harmonies, baroque counterpoints and whatnot, but I mostly hear it as limp Christmas music.

R.E.M.

Nick Cave

Jim O' Rourke

Serge Gainsbourg

Esquivel

I hate the framing of this thread because posting personal examples would seem like an admission of defeat.. "i can only admire this artist, i will never like them". that's just me, though.

van dyke parks

oh guys i mean my opinion of ms sprinkles changes often depending on what i'm listening to lol

all of the things you mention in the "admire" half of your post are reason enough to love her but I love the music too, esp the ambient stuff. However I agree with "probably the correct configuration" cause I doubt thaemlitz gives a shit about being loved

i feel like there are a lot of awkward things colliding in her rhythms on occasion and the sustained ecosystem of funkiness i am always after is not achieved but i also think she's interested in doing different things than that sonically, and she consistently achieves those things, and sometimes i really feel them, esp. on midtown 120 blues which is still a favorite. n.b. ballroom crashes don't do much for me either so ymmv. and tuomas, i would be surprised if you could pass a basic reading comprehension test, as i never said i found it difficult and neither did anyone else.

what do you think of her remix of the adultnapper track?

it's very hardcore homo deep house thug which is a good thing imo. like i picture just the baddest bitches in the world grooving to it on an underlit dancefloor. i'd probably lose it a little if i heard it in a club, i'm sure the bass would sound divine. but i'm not totally sure about the build-up of layers and how they match, it's a little too messy and busy for me somehow like it feels less than the sum of its parts. but some of those parts sure are fantastic...

too much going on in the hi-hat / snare range i think. it's not articulated in a way that hits me directly, which i mean could be a reason to admire it too. lots of mid-treble. there's something anemic and busy about it at the same time.

fair enough. how do you rate ALS in comparison to other Coltrane-led albums?

I mean... certainly in the top half, wouldn't you say? I can't say I've ever thought about which Coltrane albums are "the best" or "my favorite" but I go back to Love Supreme a lot and my opinion of it hasn't diminished at all.

a love supreme is a magnificent record and even if you've listened to every goddman coltrane recording you would be a fool not to rate it among his best work, the fuck do i care if jazz dabblers only pick up that one and no others

(sorry polyphonic that was not directed at you at all even though the posting sequence looks like, i don't meant to call you a fool!)

i'd probably lose it a little if i heard it in a club, i'm sure the bass would sound divine.

Fabric soundsystem:)

The question of aspiration and its relationship to taste is really interesting. There was a period in my late teens/early twenties where most of what I listened to was jazz and classical, but then I turned back to rock and pop music. I bought a number of complete opera sets that I haven't played in several years, and now I have practically no desire to listen to them at all (I started to have the perception that the culture that values that form is moribund, though you could read it more favorably as carrying on a tradition, or talk about vital if obscure new works).

I do think there's something fundamentally valuable about being a "good listener," but the real desire to engage with music that is radically difficult (especially in the improvisational vein) left me at some point in my twenties. By contrast, it seems there's a common trajectory is for people to start taking up, say, jazz around that time, maybe because they no longer identify with the fantasies (or realities) inscribed in pop music, and seek after something that engages them on a more overtly intellectual level. Despite having worked through a fair amount of Adorno at this point, though, I'm comfortable admitting that I still turn to music largely for affective reasons (though I also like to relate the feelings to a sense of history — my own and that of the music, the culture that produced it, etc.). This could still change, though!

I mean... certainly in the top half, wouldn't you say? I can't say I've ever thought about which Coltrane albums are "the best" or "my favorite" but I go back to Love Supreme a lot and my opinion of it hasn't diminished at all.

yeah, it's impossible to rank the music.. my mistake for implying that. it was my entry point, and it sort of put me off of his music until i got older, heard "India" and a live recording of "My Favorite Things", etc. i'm still a n00b. it's that most every conversation i've been a part of (on the topic of Coltrane jazz) invariably leads to somebody proclaiming it the end-all be-all of John Coltrane music, or all jazz music (as well as the conversation), which is disappointing.