are kraftwerk ironic?

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on the corporate impulse in chart pop thread custos says kraftwerk were, to an extent, being ironic. do you think they were?

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 4 November 2002 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

a better question might be "were kraftwerk krap"?

i'm not saying they were, but are we too quick to deify them as pioneers and what have you without actually considering whether the music actually stands up, regardless of their intent?

― Denise Lambert, Monday, 4 November 2002 16:41 (twenty-three years ago)

In this recent thread I asked some similar questions.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 4 November 2002 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)

I think with all the much later stuff, Expo etc, that they became self-parodic. Otherwise no. The robotic/clean/moderism thing,I think they really believed it, or at least thought it was a new and genuinly interesting way of taking music forward. However it may not have been the extent of their whole being.

Krafwerk Neighbour:Hi I just moved in next door, I was wondering if I could borrow a cup of sugar?

Kraftwerk: Boing ping boom tschak ping.

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 4 November 2002 16:47 (twenty-three years ago)

i think there's an element of revisionism in calling kraftwerk ironic.

― michael wells (michael w.), Monday, 4 November 2002 16:55 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, bit of a thread duplication, well, sort of.

i've never reeally thought of them as ironic at all, although perhaps the argument that they got a bit tongue-in-cheek by the time of computer world has some merit

as to the pioneer/krap question, i'd never really connected the 'pioneer' status with liking them, for some reason, in my head, i connect them as uninfluential, a side road. this may be because i don't see them as futuristic and forward-looking at all, but nostalgic, so i dont really connect them with later.

i find their records heartbreakingly poignant and beautiful - perhaps this is why i dont see any irony there

(oh and yes, michael OTM with the revisionism thing)

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 4 November 2002 16:56 (twenty-three years ago)

"computer love" is certainly one of the most "heartbreakingly poignant and beautiful" songs i can think of.

― michael wells (michael w.), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

but the very fact that Afrika Bambaataa and Grandmaster Flash both credit 'Trans Euro Express', 'Numbers' and 'Tour De France' with igniting the emerging hip hop and electro sound in New York suggests the attitude towards them at the time was hugely positive among the unlikely audience of black, ghetto youth and confirms they were regarded as pioneering (albeit inadvertedly) electronic dance music

i dont think they pioneered anything in the pop sense however, apart from the use of the synths, sequencers and drum machines...the likes of 'The Model' certainly seem more wistfully nostalgic/romantic rather than progressive and innovative i.e. the song itself sounds like it was written 30-40 years before it was which is part of its magic and appeal, and it remains a rare moment in which the band were not making observational and/or enthusiastic statements about technology

― blueski, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

i say 'inadvertedly' because it seems Kraftwerk were not really concerned with making people...at least not until they heard 'Planet Rock'

― blueski, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

that should be 'making people'...dance!

― blueski, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Kraftwerk + irony = Senor Coconut. Who are shite. Thus, no.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:14 (twenty-three years ago)

This really is quite the revisionist concept: it seems to me that the late 70s and early 80s were a period during which people made a lot of very "constructed" musical gestures without fretting over the levels of irony in them. This was before the tenets of indie-think injected itself into our heads: even the most ridiculous gestures were still "sincere," because they were parts of the show the artists had quite "sincerely" decided to put on.

And even beyond that it's a dangerous game to look back at something that was supposed to be futuristic and call it "ironic," since with futurism more than anything we immediately lose proper perspective as soon as the period's over. (I was thinking about this last night looking at the wardrobe on the covers of The Man-Machine and Numan's Pleasure Principle: awful icky terrible fabrics in Numan's suit and Kraftwerk's pants, the sorts of things only the elderly poor still wear now -- and yet at the time. . .)

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:23 (twenty-three years ago)

would the notion of irony perhaps not have crept into Kraftwerk's recent concerts? just wondering if they're more relaxed and communicative now they're older - rumours of them smiling and joking too - perhaps this more because of the 'naivety' of their lyrics? this may also depend on how much newer unreleased stuff they play. the 'new' tracks i've heard by them (the same ones any Kraftwerk fan wouldve heard from '97 up to 'Expo 2000') did actually retain something of a fresh and futuristic edge - even 'Expo 2000' which tho you may dismiss it as a conceptually dated and culturally redundant piece, was still sonically admirable and backed up by some well chosen remixes. however the Tron-inspired costumes i saw them in 5 years ago suggest they still consider the future as something that no longer existed as a concept after 1982

― blueski, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:56 (twenty-three years ago)

i think Kraftwerk are more attached to the idea of futurism as an aesthetic that has actually become outdated though its ethos itself is timeless - i.e. they're futuristic and they perceive futurism in the same way that Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis' and the CGI in the film 'Tron' are still referred to as futuristic...this itself being ironic because the special effects in both films are so dated technically...ah but to watch they are STILL stunning perhaps because we're aware of their reverence - likewise much of Kraftwerk's (and a lot of both analogue and digital electronica) music remains so quintessentially and evocatively futuristic for the same reasons...so where does the irony fit into that?

― blueski, Monday, 4 November 2002 18:04 (twenty-three years ago)

I think we're confusing - and I said sthing like this on the other thread - "irony" with humour. Kraftwerk could be funny and I'm sure knew they could be seen as ridiculous. That doesn't mean they didn't believe in what they were doing.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 November 2002 18:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Kraftwerk were not really concerned with making people.
Nope. They were really concerned with making androids.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Monday, 4 November 2002 20:52 (twenty-three years ago)

This is a very strange topic...

Kraftwerk were innovative. But Kraftwerk were not a very good band. Sure they had a few moments but as visionary as "Radioactive" is can you really hum any of it? I'm always hesitant to mention them in the same breath as Can, Amon Duul, or Cluster. Pioneers? Yes. A great band? No.

Anna is right here. Kraftwerk believed in perfection. And their music posses a coldness that goes beyond irony. NEU! were of a similar mind as Kraftwerk yet were far more soulful and interesting.

― Juan, Monday, 4 November 2002 23:35 (twenty-three years ago)

blimey juan you must be a top-of-the-range hummer if you've cracked phallus dei

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 4 November 2002 23:39 (twenty-three years ago)

Ohm Sweet Ohm

A touch of irony there, methinks.

― Ben Williams, Monday, 4 November 2002 23:46 (twenty-three years ago)

irony or just a really bad pun?

― blueski, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 01:24 (twenty-three years ago)

i think it's cute

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 01:29 (twenty-three years ago)

can you really hum any of it?

I assume you mean 'Radioactivity' not 'Radioactive'?

Yes! As with many of their more popular tracks it had a strong melody.

Yeah, I fail to see how 'Ohm Sweet Ohm' is ironic. You haven't been at those Alanis pills have you?

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 01:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, the simplest meaning of irony is using words to express something opposite from their literal meaning. There's a sense in which home/ohm are opposites; we hear home, with its associations of family, warmth, naturalness etc., but the spelling (and the sound of the record) are associated with electricity, coldness, automatism blah blah blah.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:01 (twenty-three years ago)

PS You can believe something and be ironic about it at the same time, btw.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Juan, I can hum every single part of that song and even imitate the drum pattern! I'm not sure what you're getting at...

― Clarke B., Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:04 (twenty-three years ago)

(oh, and perspective is not misleading in this case: even at the time Kraftwerk's futurism was totally out of date--Fritz Lang, etc!)

(Gary Numan on the other hand did not get this, which is why he's such a prat)

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Computer World is 100% ironic and 100% unfunny. The pose of wide-eyed naivete and fascination with "Interpol und Deutsche Bank / FBI und Scotland Yard" is central to the creepiness - this is Socratic irony, right?

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:20 (twenty-three years ago)

>Kraftwerk + irony = Senor Coconut. Who are shite. Thus, no.

Actually there is nothing ironic about Senor Coconut which you would know if you have read any interviews with Uwe Schimdt. He genuinely likes Latin music, and when he heard Kraftwerk he heard Latin potential in it. Just because YOU might think Latin music is a joke doesn't mean everyone does.

Kraftwerk ironic? The song "Pocket Calculator", which most see as some kind of joke, I see as one of the most beautiful songs ever written. As an engineer who uses his calculator every day, I can appreciate the joy of adding, and subtracting, and controlling, and composing at futuristic speeds. This means more to me than a million crappy romatic love songs. Also, the song has an excellent melody with kewl bleepy sounds.

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:22 (twenty-three years ago)

OK here's more. Kraftwerk are totally ironic because Kraftwerk and the audience of Kraftwerk live in parallel universes with different laws of perception. Kraftwerk live in a world where they can't notice anything but the wonder of technology because it's totally ubiquitous, we live in a world where we don't notice the wonder and ubiquity of technology because it's all around us (more irony).

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Ok, let me clear things up...

I wasn't necessarily talking about the melodies in Kraftwerk's music. Of all the "Krautrock" bands, Kraftwerk are very difficult to listen to. Kraftwerk are soulless in a way that leaves you cold. Kraftwerk don't really connect with a listener at first. Cluster made music that really gets under your skin, inviting you to want get deeper into the music. It was an bad example on my part, the whole humming thing. The question of rather or not they were ironic was secondary. Kraftwerk were influential, and innovative and all that. But they fail to surprise or excite me the way Can does, for instance. Hope that clears things up.

And yes, I did mean "Radio-Activity".

NOTE: Couldn't figure out how to quote others. Forgive the sloppiness here.

― Juan, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:45 (twenty-three years ago)

>But they fail to surprise or excite me the way Can does, for instance. >Hope that clears things up.

Have you heard their Krautrockish stuff, pre-Autobahn? What do you think of that? You keep comparing them to Krautrock groups, but after Autobahn they went off into a totally different area.

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 03:10 (twenty-three years ago)

I personally find Kraftwerk's music the very opposite of cold and robotic -- it's achingly human in a way that's even stronger, I think, in hindsight. But hey, if you're not feeling them, I can't do much to convince you. [/raggett]

― Clarke B., Tuesday, 5 November 2002 06:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I really like Ruckzuck - sort of Can-meets-Jethro-Tull, Stratovarius and a couple on Ralph & Florian.

― Jez (Jez), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 07:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Ben I think "Ohm Sweet Ohm" is the warmest thing on Radioactivity, so the title seems to fit perfectly to me (and be cornily funny too). Minor point tho.