Crossover Credit? "Walk This Way" vs. "World Destruction"

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In the wake of Jam Master Jay's passing, the media is yet again reminding everyone with a pair of ears that Run-Dmc's 1986 collaboration with Tyler & Perry of Aerosmith, "Walk This Way" was "the first hip-hop record to appeal to both rockers and rappers....." (according to Allmusic) and the first single to wed the two disparate worlds of rock and rap. Vein-popping gushes of shamelssly purple prose devoted to said single's barrier-breaking achievment are to be found in virtually every periodical, from THE SOURCE through TIME.

*BUT*

How come no one mention's Afrika Bambaataa & John Lydon's collaboration, "World Destruction" (under the moniker, Time Zone) that pre-dates "Walk This Way" by a whole two years? Sure, I know sales are tippped heavily in Run-Dmc's favour, but doesn't it bug anyone that Time Zone aren't getting any credit for crossing over the threshold first?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 November 2002 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"World Destruction"...

A) not widely heard by fans of rap or rock...not widely heard at all
B) produced by Bill Laswell...according to some folks, that's a bad thing

― Nickalicious, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Also it's terrible

― dave q, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

unless you're talking about direct collaboration btwn reps of each camp: Kurtis Blow covered "Taking Care of Business" (really badly)before either of those, & The Clash's "Radio Clash" and "Magnificent 7", Blondie's "Rapture" (i think) predated those too. As I remember "Licensed to Ill" was out around the time "Walk This Way" came out too. "Nation of Millions" & "Bum Rush The Show" have guitars all over a few songs. I'm sure there's other examples - I don't think Hip Hop was ever so much the opposite of Rock as anyone made it out to be.

Still I wouldn't deny that "WTW" was a watershed moment, whereas Time Zone was just, um, not esp. on the radio.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Alex that World Destruction is a great track, but (like most of John's work) it was a long way from mainstream rock and I suspect would have been more likely to *alienate* a mainstream rock audience than attract one.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but I was talking about direct collaborations (Johnny Lydon and Afrika Bambataa/Run-Dmc and Aerosmith), not simply covers or stylistic adaptations. I'm talking about individuals from completely separate camps joining forces.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

"World Destruction"'s arguable terribleness is not the issue (some might argue that "Walk This Way" itself is deplorably over-rated), but rather the simple fact that as a collaboration between the worlds of "rap" and "rock," IT CAME FIRST!!!

Of course, as Stew pointed out, there are probably some who might argue that Lydon at the time (`84) was no longer making conventional "rock" music. That might be true, but he was still a foreign element to the Hip Hop community.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

What about "Doriella du Fontaine", with Lightnin' Rod from the Last Poets and rock gtrst J Hendrix

― dave q, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Does Blondie's "Rapture" count at all? (Honestly, I'm not sure myself.)

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Blondie's "Rapture" was out four years before "World Destruction", so I'd give it the nod for really bringing rap to the mainstream pop/rock world. Whether the rap fans went for it is another story altogether, but again, they didn't really go for "World Destruction" either. I think the point about "Walk This Way" is that it was the first song to REALLY be embraced by both sides, not just "ah, that's interesting".

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 4 November 2002 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but no one from the rap world actually worked on "Rapture" (Debbie namedropping Fab Five Freddy doesn't count). I'm talking about COLLABORATIONS!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 November 2002 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Y'know, Doug Wimbish (the bassist from Living Colour) played bass on some of the Sugar Hill Gang's earliest recordings. Not that that means anything, but it's interesting, no?

― nickalicious, Monday, 4 November 2002 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

All due respect, Alex, that's not the question you asked...not clearly, anyhow. It looks like you asked about crossover, instead, for which Blondie would clearly qualify. With the question re-jigged, "World Destruction" may well be one of the first true collaborations (so long as you disqualify Bambaataa's earlier use of Kraftwerk as a "collaboration").

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 4 November 2002 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Fair point, Sean. But, by that logic, you could also make the fairly ridiculous argument that fuckin' Bob Dylan's "Subterrenean Homesick Blues" was the first "rock/rap" crossover (well....he was rapping, wasn't he?)

But, you're right. I should've made my point a bit clearer.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 November 2002 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

when didn run rmc release "kings of rock"? 1984 or 1985?

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 4 November 2002 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

`85. Why?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 November 2002 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry i meant "rock box", which is 1984, from the run dmc lp

it's a sample or whatever they were called then, but it's not scratched snippets, it's great lengthy chunks of the riff (dunno what it is), and it's kind of a pre-release run for walk this way....

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 4 November 2002 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing is that World Destruction doesn't sound like rap, really. Or even rock, for that matter. (But it did sound great in the first episode of the current Sopranos season!) It's one of Laswell's weird hybrids. Whereas Walk this Way is very obviously rock/rap. History doesn't remember technicalities.

― Ben Williams, Monday, 4 November 2002 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

rock box is very obviously WtW's precursor: and a totally clear genre crossover — collaborating guitarist = eddie martinez

(dear god the run dmc lp has a lame cover!! )

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 4 November 2002 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

ie it's NOT a sample (i just read the v.little credits)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 4 November 2002 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah... actually rock box gets its fair share of credit too, but mainly in "serious" hip-hop histories...

― Ben Williams, Monday, 4 November 2002 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think the big deal about "Walk this Way" it that it's the first rap-rock merger (yeah, "Rock Box" beats it, and is a much better record at that), but that it was the first time the metal and rap crowds were explicitly courted as a potential single-unit audience (especially through the video, which was ingenious), though it took years before this user-hybrid would actually occur, of course (via the putrid Korn et al.). It was more important as a pop event than as a bridging of the two (equally ostracized) audiences, though--the first time many people heard any "street" rap (whatever their virtues--and I believe they are many--"Rapture" and "Rapper's Delight" sound kinda lightweight in comparison). I agree with Ben that "World Destruction" isn't really a "rock" record or a "rap" record. It sounds more like a "college" record, or art-rap perhaps. I assume it had even less impact on the rap crowd than "WTW" had (initially) on the rock crowd.

― slim vestant, Monday, 4 November 2002 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

of course (via the putrid Korn et a.)

Faith No More, then.

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 4 November 2002 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

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