is U.S. R n'b/urban POP better now than in 1989/1990?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Bobby Brown, Bell Biv Devoe, Ralph Tresvant (all from New Edition of course), Guy, En Vogue, SWV, Shai, Color Me Badd (ha!) and the mighty Prince and Janet Jackson

Destiny's Child, Diddy, Usher, Nelly, Timberlake, Tweet, Kelis, Donnel Jones, Mary J Blige, Christina Milian and er, Janet Jackson

by better i mean the quality of the songwriting, production etc. - all in all i actually think its pretty much the same - just in that there are classic tracks from that 89-90 period that stand up well against recent classics (esp. BBD's 'Poison' and En Vogue and SWV's debut hits - what you say? is this at all relevant even? (maybe not but it might be worth comparing whats regarded as sophisticated urban pop today with its 12/13 year old equivalent in assessing its true greatness)

― blueski, Friday, 8 November 2002 17:28 (twenty-three years ago)

1989 had Neneh Cherry's "Buffalo Stance" and Bobby Brown's "Prerogative," yes? Two of my all-time fave singles.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Friday, 8 November 2002 17:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Do you really think the production is the same? I actually think the biggest change is in how clearly technological advances and the desire to fuck around with them have galvanized a lot of what's going on.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

yes this is true, the production is 'smarter' in that sense but is it any funkier or more inventive? the major change i noticed in sound is that modern producers like The Neptunes seem to feel resonance, echo and delay are not hot and as a result most beats in the music today are ultra-tight literally - the snares can be punchy but there's no delay or warmth on them like you'd find in the 80s tracks and most old funk and soul stuff actually...Timbaland and the Neps are both obssessed with snipping everything to make it sound more efficient and simple, the beats and bass seem more urgent and 'primal' as a result...the inclusion of the 'bells' funk break on 'Work It' at the end is interesting as a result - will Tim be using fatter, dirtier beats and breaks more now?

― blueski, Friday, 8 November 2002 17:44 (twenty-three years ago)

what i'm suggesting there is maybe when the Roland drum machines were being used in the 80s producers wanted to keep the delay and resonance up to make them sound more like 'real' drums (perhaps cos it was more credible to the american market?) but more recently producers have considered that not necessary and exploit the synthetic aspect of electronic drums more to signal that their work is sonically up-to-date and forward-thinking

― blueski, Friday, 8 November 2002 17:47 (twenty-three years ago)

another way its moved on and perhaps improved is in the wider use of samples esp. 'foreign' souces like on Truth Hurts and Missy Elliott's recent hits - a more open-minded approach based on the awareness that the music has to stay fresh and try new things (esp. when the messages in the songs never really change)

― blueski, Friday, 8 November 2002 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

will Tim be using fatter, dirtier beats and breaks more now?

Well based on what I've heard of Under Construction so far, Tom's call on that thread is accurate, it's a blend. Consider "Back in the Day" -- it packs together what sounds like a Jackson 5 bassline, lyrical references to the eighties and all these slippery echoes sneaking off into the distance. Good combo!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

"buffalo stance" is one of my favorite tracks of all time, too, Yancey. Is Neneh considered American, though? Didn;t she grow up in Europe, and live in England when she made that track (hence the Tim Simenon collab.)?
I still can't get over the fact that she is Don Cherry's daughter.

blueski, you are making good points about the use of effects in pop. I wonder, though, if the lack of reverb has anything to do with these songs being mixed for the radio, which demands tighness and cleanliness (think of the overuse of noise gates on real drums during certain periods of rock).

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 18:27 (twenty-three years ago)

ned, you sound almost excited about a new pop record!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 8 November 2002 18:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Amazing! It's enjoyable, on balance. Certainly a lot more so than Xtina's trainwreck.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 18:33 (twenty-three years ago)

"on balance"...you were so close!!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 8 November 2002 18:35 (twenty-three years ago)

keep trying, jess!

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 18:39 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, it's not knocking me over with a feather because it's not designed to, I think. Is it a record that's supposed to be some new benchmark? I don't hear it as such!

As for being excited about pop in general, not as long as this is Justin Timberlake's week. Next week we'll see. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 18:55 (twenty-three years ago)

I think there's a lot more good stuff going on now, but i'm not sure how much this owes to the fact that 1989-90 was my peak indie kid year. i'd like to think i didn't really like much contemporary r&b then was because it wasn't any good, but the if 'my perogative' and 'buffalo stance' are representative of the quality of the times, then i was a damn fool.
but i'm not sure they were, think buffalo stance was maybe a bit earlier and know for certain it wasn't "US R&B".

hurrah! i am vindicated!

and weren't (the intermittently fantastic)en vogue 92/93?

BUT! just remembered i used to HATE "end of the road" by boyzIImen, in fact i used to think it was the worst record that could possibly exist. and I've since realised it's really good.

bah! the jury's still out.

― adam b (adam b), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:12 (twenty-three years ago)

"Hold On" came out late 1989/early 1990.

"My Perogative" is a good song, but really not that much distinguishes it from other stuff that came out that year, especially Guy/Troop/whatever else Teddy Riley was doing. Also, you will soon discover that the only good thing about "End Of The Road" is the a capella section and the rest of it is unholy Satan on wax.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:20 (twenty-three years ago)

i still can't stomach "end of the road" it is tailor made for the worst middle school dances. i used to play the lords of acid at mine.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:21 (twenty-three years ago)

My fault for namechecking "Buffalo Stance." Didn't notice the "U.S." in the title.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:30 (twenty-three years ago)

don't apologize because it is a great record and deserves mention on every thread on ILM. it is the "loveless" of pop!

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:33 (twenty-three years ago)

jodeci vs. k-ci & jo-jo!
new edition vs. ja rule ft. bobby brown!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:36 (twenty-three years ago)

(Also, "Don't Be Cruel" is better than "My Perogative".)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Agreed on "Don't Be Cruel." It's just that when I think of 89/90 the two things that jump out are "Perogative" and "Buffalo."

― Yancey (ystrickler), Friday, 8 November 2002 20:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A lot of that late '80s stuff sounds really sterile now, missing the fat analog synths that enriched the music of the early '80s. There were some horrible machines around that time (in particular the Roland D series synths - beginning with the D50 - and of course the Korg M1). Also 'swingbeat' (as it was called) sounds very stylised and unfunky. I never liked that style even then. En Vogue's 'Hold On', on the other hand, still sounds just as good as it did in 1990. What happened to McElroy & Foster?

― David (David), Saturday, 9 November 2002 00:32 (twenty-three years ago)

but the Korg M1 has to be the most used synth ever! it seemed such a staple of studios - i even saw Goldie use one prominently in his live shows, i wanted one for years as a result, eventually ending up with a Yamaha CS1x heh heh

― blueski, Saturday, 9 November 2002 09:01 (twenty-three years ago)

but the Korg M1 has to be the most used synth ever!

That's partly why I dislike it. That and the big ugly round buttons. The piano sound was good in its day though.

― David (David), Saturday, 9 November 2002 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

it's hard to say since we tend to forget a lot of the shit we didn't care for. however, many of the bands listed were later than 1990, specifically Color Me Badd and Shai and SWV. Also, 1989/1990 Prince means "Batdance." Are you saying modern stuff isn't as good as "Batdance"?

― Anthony Miccio, Saturday, 9 November 2002 22:55 (twenty-three years ago)

and call me a romantic wimp, but "Every Little Step" is still Bobby's greatest song. Get SLAYED!

― Anthony Miccio, Saturday, 9 November 2002 22:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Also, 1989/1990 Prince means "Batdance." Are you saying modern stuff isn't as good as "Batdance"?

Prince on soundtrack for Batman vs. Macy Gray in Spider-Man FITE or something.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 10 November 2002 01:34 (twenty-three years ago)

What's the present day "Teddy's Jam"?

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 10 November 2002 01:41 (twenty-three years ago)

"I Wanna Fuck You in the Ass" -- oh wait.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 10 November 2002 02:45 (twenty-three years ago)

nah...bobby brown, bbd, roxored!

today = suxor!

― Mary (Mary), Sunday, 10 November 2002 04:27 (twenty-three years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.