John Coltrane - Both Directions at Once: The Lost Album (2018)

i mean shit, it's a new Coltrane record figure it deserves it's own thread

digging it so far, would love to hear the jazz cru's take

https://cdn2.thelineofbestfit.com/images/made/images/remote/https_cdn2.thelineofbestfit.com/media/2014/01_ALT-G8885A1_LP_Jacket_600_595.jpg

my unschooled take is that this is amazing

my schooled take is that you're right

I'm a tiny bit annoyed that for the album cover they didn't go full on early 60s Impulse design, like Crescent or the John Coltrane Quartet Plays

really is a pleasure — that dark/droney "nature boy" is fantastic.

Garrison's bass on that track is just inspired, it's a short but very awesome 3 mins +

i want a drumset like the one on the album cover

Album of the year, obviously.

it's so weird this just feels like it always existed...like the Neil Young Hitchhiker of jazz

I'm a tiny bit annoyed that for the album cover they didn't go full on early 60s Impulse design, like Crescent or the John Coltrane Quartet Plays

― chr1sb3singer, Friday, June 29, 2018 2:58 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Agreed. I liked what Blue Note came up with in the '00s for records of previously-unreleased stuff by Andrew Hill (and probably others, I just can't think of any at the moment) -- most were in line with the '60s Blue Note design approach.

i want a drumset like the one on the album cover

You are not alone, that is exactly the classic drumset that people want (Gretsch round badge, old K Zildjians) :)

it's so weird this just feels like it always existed...like the Neil Young Hitchhiker of jazz

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, June 29, 2018 3:38 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's...there's more though, isn't there? Studio stuff, I mean. The story is that a "stack" of mono reels was found by members of Naima's family in 2004, though I guess it's possible this could be the only one of those that was unreleased.

it's so weird this just feels like it always existed...like the Neil Young Hitchhiker of jazz

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown)

ty this is perfect

xpost - tarfumes there may be i haven't been following super closely

The jazz thread had a link to someone's super detailed account of what's on those reels

this is this year's Les Liaisons Dangereuses 2017(a lost album by Monk). But that was never going to make the same splash because it was lots of familiar material, but it was still a tour de force!

The jazz thread had a link to someone's super detailed account of what's on those reels

― change display name (Jordan), Friday, June 29, 2018 2:55 PM (seventeen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://www.barrykernfeld.com/aop.htm

Scroll down

Agreed. I liked what Blue Note came up with in the '00s for records of previously-unreleased stuff by Andrew Hill (and probably others, I just can't think of any at the moment) -- most were in line with the '60s Blue Note design approach.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 29 June 2018 19:42 (one hour ago) Permalink

And they (Impulse, Verve, UMG, whoever) did it for Stellar Regions that came out in the 90s

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that one.

But the Impulse reissue art department has put out some colossal stinkers: the bizarre papier-mâché puppet on the cover of Ayler's Greenwich Village, the horrible paintings/poster in the Coltrane Complete Live at the Village Vanguard set, probably a few others I can't think of at the moment.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3118/2627291263_65b9c0f99f.jpg

j/k i love this one

“11386” is awesome, it’s so catchy and the solos all get out there

i totally missed hearing on that monk album, trane's people have much better promo folks. i'll have to check it out when i have a working desktop!

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that one.

But the Impulse reissue art department has put out some colossal stinkers: the bizarre papier-mâché puppet on the cover of Ayler's Greenwich Village, the horrible paintings/poster in the Coltrane Complete Live at the Village Vanguard set, probably a few others I can't think of at the moment.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 29 June 2018 23:17 (three days ago) Permalink

The Complete Village Vanguard box art is just bad. The Ayler one is a fucking crime. People should be in prison, I am not exaggerating.

This 'Trane record is great btw! As I think unperson pointed out it's fun! Not something I normally associated with this band.

Greenwich Village has a papier-mâché ayler head right? Classic.

And yeah, there’s definitely a playfulness happening with this new Coltrane set. I like it.

Which I think lends credence to the theory Lewis Porter raises in the piece Tarfumes shared on the other thread that this session probably wasn't exactly intended for an album but something more like a warm-up/curve-ball to keep the band on their toes.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ng1y7YjKR8M/TxHZ1hM9ASI/AAAAAAAAC_s/Q9HKxG3Xu5A/s1600/Albert-Ayler-Live-in-Greenwich-Village.jpg

That's unbelievably bad

what a record though! holy shit.

Just more proof that Impulse never had a single clue about what do with him

I've heard conflicting accounts -- some have said Ayler willingly added vocals and guitars and such to his records, but a musician who worked with Albert told me that Albert said, "Man, I should've never signed that Impulse contract."

Shame that Impulse had issues with storage space. Hate to think what was lost at least in great quality.
Sounded from what I read as though what was turning up were less quality mix downs.
THough from hearing this set once it does sound pretty decent.

I’m enjoying this but I think it’s pretty clear as others are saying that this isn’t/ wasn’t meant to be an album. It’s in keeping with the “Mastery of John Coltrane” series Impulse was releasing shortly before their late 70s demise.

agreed -- at the same time though, there are a few coltrane albums released during his lifetime that are kinda hodge-podges of various sessions: impressions, birdland, coltrane jazz etc. they weren't all big fully formed concepts.

Is it weird I'm more interested in the bonus (second) disc? "Impressions" has long been one of my all time favorite tunes, and the idea of four (studio!) takes of it is something I couldn't imagine leaving it off any version of this release.

Does the vinyl have the entire session, or just the contents of disc 1?

Also, has anyone purchased the LP at an actual store? My two regular shops are usually very reliable about stocking such releases, but neither had any (yet?). Shipping delay, possibly?

there's a "deluxe" 2LP version with the bonus CD tracks:

https://www.discogs.com/John-Coltrane-Both-Directions-At-Once-The-Lost-Album/release/12191152

right. I'm not at all unhappy this got released, though I've seen some shittalkers on social media calling it a pure cash grab... maybe it is, but the interest is there so its discovery virtually assured its release.

haha, yeah i've seen some people getting a little cooler-than-thou about it, but i dunno — however it's being sold, it's (mostly) unheard music from one of the 20th cenury's greatest groups ... i can't find too much to complain about.

I think some of the pre-release hype was slightly hot & heavy but at the same time they are attempting to garner interest in 50 yr old release by a jazz group, I'm going to cut them some slack as far as PR hype in order to grab eyeballs & earholes.

I should be getting this in the mail this afternoon.

I can't understand the cynicism around something like this. It's relevant to anyone who is a fan of this band. How can hearing more of one of the most amazing bands ever assembled be a bad thing? I just don't get it.

There was a Bill Evans thing from a couple years back that was a similar scenario (newly discovered recordings from a classic era). And that thing is just excellent from any vantage point. Would it have made an impact if it had been released at the time? I don't know. But I do know that, as a fan of the musicians involved, I can now see it as an integral document of the band at a very important point in their respective trajectories.

How can hearing more of one of the most amazing bands ever assembled be a bad thing? I just don't get it.

otm.

agreed -- at the same time though, there are a few coltrane albums released during his lifetime that are kinda hodge-podges of various sessions: impressions, birdland, coltrane jazz etc. they weren't all big fully formed concepts.

― tylerw, Monday, July 2, 2018 12:15 PM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Weirdly, when he did record enough material at one session for an album/fully-formed concept, as he did at the "Kulu Se Mama" session, it still got broken up across several releases.

Regarding the notion that the session was meant as more rehearsal than actual album session...does anyone know what Elvin Jones' legal status was at the time of recording? Did he (or anyone in that band) know he'd be imprisoned later that year for a few months, I wonder?

really makes me wish someone would write a great bio on the JCQ.

There are several well-regarded books on Coltrane. I haven't read any of them, but Lewis Porter's John Coltrane: His Life and Music seems to be the ideal starting point. Personally, if I was gonna read one, I'd probably choose Ben Ratliff's Coltrane: The Story of a Sound, which is apparently less biographical and more focused on the music. I just really like Ratliff's writing.

the idea that its a 'rehearsal' and not a 'real' session feels like a really basic misunderstanding of how jazz works

Regarding the notion that the session was meant as more rehearsal than actual album session

yeah who's saying this bc they're full of shit

afaict

Woody Shaw’s son on instagram has been the main shittalker I’ve come across

The economics of jazz do not allow for artists to go into the studio for no reason and just...you know, do whatever, man. If Coltrane and Thiele booked Rudy Van Gelder's studio for a day, it was because they expected something commercially viable to come out of doing so.

Re bios, I’ve read and put down porter’s book a few times. His prose is pretty unenaging. I’ll seek Ratliff’s

ratliff's book is good — i kinda wish it was longer / more in-depth (though it gets in-depth at points). yeah, i could see a bio that focuses in on coltrane, jones, tyner and workman (as opposed to just coltrane).

I don't really understand what fine hair we are splitting

I have this vinyl box of Charlie Parker stuff that has everything he recorded in a certain time, even when they flub up after 30 seconds and then do another take

Tyner's biography would be the write-around of all time. He doesn't do interviews anymore, and rarely did them even in the old days. I got a phoner with him about a decade ago, when that Guitars album came out, and after five minutes he was in full "I've got better things to do" mode.

ha! yeah, trying to remember if i've ever read a really lengthy / revealing interview with tyner ...

I’d never thought about it before but he seems like someone who could be very difficult to talk to.

The Tyner interview in the Frank Kofsky book comes close to being revealing, but Tyner’s discomfort with interviews (and with Kofsky’s leading questions) is evident.

jones on the other hand seems like he was pretty accessible. was just listening to a trapset interview with santana's old drummer michael shrieve where he said he had hundreds of hours of interviews with elvin that he was trying to figure out how to distribute ...

Woody Shaw’s son on instagram has been the main shittalker I’ve come across

That is rich, coming from a guy whose main goal in life is to cash in on his father's legacy.

Seriously, I love Woody Shaw's music (the Tokyo 1981 show that was just released is fantastic and highly recommended) but his son is a grade-A douchebag, if his liner notes and press releases are any indication.

The Ratliff book is good!

xxxpost Jones pops up on some docs & interviews, he has some good stories, specifically the throwing the drum stick at Coltrane one, Garrison is the one I'd be most interested in hearing from though...did he do any big interviews before he passed?

Oh dude, Woody Shaw is one of the greats, for sure. His time with Joe Henderson's band was incredible.

It's been my experience that people whose sole focus is managing their parents' artistic output/legacy/estate (I've encountered this alot in my job) tend to be dicks.

xposts

specifically the throwing the drum stick at Coltrane one

Elvin could be a jerk. A teacher of mine was backstage at a multi-artist benefit that the Coltrane quartet was playing, and the scheduling of acts got screwed up, so there were delays. Elvin flipped out, was screaming in Coltrane’s face, and starting shouting at everyone backstage, “Who wants these drums?! Who wants to buy my drums?! Fifty dollars! Fifty dollars for my drums!”

This literally sounds like something from that New Yorker parody Sonny Rollins piece from a few years ago.

when were Elvin's peak coke years perchance?

lmao at both of those elvin stories

The story I heard was that, after the second (40-minute) take of Ascension, Coltrane said, “OK, let’s do one more,” only to find Elvin’s snare drum whizzing past his head.

The one I'm thinking of, from some jazz/Coltrane doc that I can't think of the title, the quartet is in hour 2 of some long sheets of sound jam and Jones is sweaty & loses his grip on a stick and it flies over Coltrane's head. Trane then essentially stops the tune & backstage sez "You know you can just say we should stop next time". Or something to that effect

Also I just read Woody Shaw's kid's insta (what a weird sentence) and what's his beef? Impulse take him off the freebie list?

lol I bet that's it

Yeah, but when he does it (releases a vault recording), it's to preserve his father's legacy.

Woody Shaw’s son’s claim that Coltrane was always striving for recordings that sounded like a live band is easily disprovable, given the overdubs on Living Space (and, arguably, Coltrane’s experiments with the electronic Varitone system).

ah but nobody knows Coltrane like Shaw 3 does, he says it himself, so YOU must be wrong!

I liked this bit in the Jazztimes bio on Elvin

Late 1965 Coltrane begins using a two-drum setup-Jones and Rashid Ali-on a regular basis. Jones later responds to the query “Do you think you two were compatible as drummers?” with “I think that I was. I don’t think he was. I think he had problems with confidence that centered on his ego. I had already been through that.” In 2003 Ali confesses as much: “At that time I was playing with John every night…so hey, ‘I’m the cat!

Coltrane asked Ali (who was playing in Bill Dixon’s group at the time) to play alongside Elvin on Ascension, but Ali declined. He wanted to be the only drummer on the date.

Xxps also the overdub at the end of A Love Supreme!

I wouldn't want to play next to Elvin either.

I love--love--Rashied on Interstellar Space, and a dozen other dates (Duo Exchange ftw!), but I feel about this era of Coltrane music the same way I feel about the Dead: two drummers was one too many.

I love--/love/--Rashied on /Interstellar Space/, and a dozen other dates (/Duo Exchange/ ftw!), but I feel about this era of Coltrane music the same way I feel about the Dead: two drummers was one too many.

Heard Roy Haynes w Trane on Night Lights (excellent Indiana Public Radio jazz documentary show, can stream this and many other eps from their archives: they have at least a couple about Haynes, as well they might). Coltrane is quoted here as saying that when Jones "is unavailable," he always tries to get Haynes, whose sound is more encompassing (or some word like that) while Jones is more "driving."
Really enjoyed the Ratliff book for tracking the effect Coltrane had on other musicians---Sonny Sharrock is quoted as saying that Trane had to die, because cats were getting intimidated: getting a new recording project together when they hear this week's onslaught and "Oh shit." Which is just what I said, sitting in the school band class and reading Downbeat (which I think did still come out every week when I was in middle school; anyway sure did seem like there was a release every fucking week, with ten stars, reviews on tablets of stone, sometimes feuds among the musos in Letters To The Editor, as Ratliff quotes. Totally intimidating for zitty me.

You can really hear the difference on Newport '63, with Haynes on drums. I remember the version of "My Favorite Things" from that album feeling much more aggressive and choppy.

The mastery of John Coltrane series has a volume dedicated to the quartet with Haynes. I suspect much of it’s been released elsewhere at this point but it’s cool to hear all together

I have this vinyl box of Charlie Parker stuff that has everything he recorded in a certain time, even when they flub up after 30 seconds and then do another take

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown)

man my favorite charlie parker is those dean benedetti acetates where he just taped parker's solos, sound quality is shit but parker sounded _great_ that week

was the Famous Alto Break from a complete take? i can't remember.

I was able to re-create that Mastery compilation with all the Haynes material, on Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/user/burningambulance/playlist/6DpZp3olBx380ur72QnUn5?si=7ykugv1gRKq-bnm0qHzzdw

was the Famous Alto Break from a complete take? i can't remember.

Okay, so I gave this a run yesterday evening and once in the car on the way to work this morning and I'm now on listen #3.

It's occurred to me just now that I'm not, in fact, listening to a well-known classic recording. That these recordings have existed for so long, yet so few people have heard them until now, is pretty remarkable.

'Untitled Original 11386' in particular feels especially vintage. Just something about that theme that is so unmistakably the sound of this band, and Coltrane in general.

Just fantastic stuff.

yeah whether it's an "album" or whatever it's a hell of an engaging and swinging listen, just a great band doing great material

actually wouldn't be a bad introduction to coltrane for someone who was unfamiliar honestly, it's very approachable but you still get why coltrane was so special

I like hearing the difference between the tracks where they turn on the juice and the ones where they sound more like a conventional jazz group (mostly down to Elvin not bashing and Tyner not laying into those chords). Not that they were all bangers on the released albums or anything, but this feels more casual.

Also like how Tyner lays out for like the first 5 minutes of Slow Blues, until his solo.