Women Music Fans Online

I hope this will be clear and comprehensible.

Female neurotic pop elitists are a denrée rare. They often are even more knowledgeable than the average male NPE, maybe because they subconsciously feel they need to overcompensate for being interested in a male-dominated field - like female sports fans (I am not starting a dodgy Hornbian theory, it just looks like it).

Thus, if these females went as far as to post on ILM, or maintain a music blog, they know what they are talking about and are genuinely pop freaks. Like the boys. Like US. And that is when the male psyche inevitably comes into play: if you have loads of mates with whom you can discuss music on an equal-level, but only one is a female, wont you have a positive bias towards her more than you have for the boys? Be honest, lads.

At this point, 2 things can happen:

If she's not particularly good-looking (something that often means little on the web), her point of view will be read with much more interest/enthusiasm by male NPE, who at last found some clever lasses with whom they can exchange. (The situation decribed above).

If she's deliciously attractive, however, she'll be lauded more than is normal and most likely secretely or openly lusted after - like Allison Kearney, for instance. Or Nanette. Not that these two do not deserve their popularity, quite the contrary. But they certainly sparkle more interest because they are chicks... (In an old boys' club, if there is only one Dorothy Parker, wont she be the Queen by default?)

Just imagine Tom being a girl! I'd love him more than I currently do, and I am sure all of YOU would too...

if you're starting to give out algonquin round table/ilm counterparts i wanna be herman mankiewicz .

Hmmm. Well. I'm flattered, "deliciously attractive" is one of the most flattering things that's ever been said about me.

I feel like Tom wrote this question for me since I bitch about it to him, so why not answer it, eh? I find there are two reactions to me, and I used the word "me" because I don't want this to become the experience of all women - I've never overly spoken to a woman about it, other than a few fleeting comments, and have no idea whether my experience is unique (those those few comments tell me they're not). I either get a very nasty "cash cow or evil bitch" (ahem) reaction or I get hit on.

There seems to be a common belief that guys are automatically more knowledgable about things like music, while girls are in it because musicians are hot. It's been an accusation levelled at me more times than I can count, to the point where I used to actually fear getting into a conversation that might bring up the point that a musician is attractive. As I've said a million times, it's not an accusation often levelled at male fans of, say, Garbage or Hole or Kenickie or whatever (though I WILL point out that it's often levelled at male fans of *pop* artists - it's like a reversal of fortune). I've actually cowered off mailing lists where I clearly was the most knowledgable person there because they were male heavy and they'd be nasty towards the idea of a female knowing more than they do. "Oh, you know shit, you just like Richey/Jarvis/Brett (?!?! I find no one less attractive than Brett Anderson for the record)/Whomever", regardless of what you have to say. Funnily enough, the ones that bothered to go look at any of my various past personal websites (all of which have had photos) suddenly changed their attitudes towards me...

So yeah, it gets a bit tiresome to know that many of my male friends get email off their webpages and articles talking about how they have good points and interesting things to say, and I get email asking me when I'm going to update my photos. I've often stated in personl conversation that I would like to start posting on ILM with a male name, not changing my tone or attitude though, and see what kind of response I get like that and compare it to the response I get as a female, because I get a sneaky suspicion that it'd be different.

Which isn't me levelling anything against the board, btw, it's definitely not a concious thing, it's just a prevailing attitude that gets pressed into the common mind.

And before anyone starts to think I'm anti-men and believe you're all either sexist or horndogs, I'd like to point out that, as a female, I get virtually NO response from other females. Zippo. There's a reason why my post started out by stating that I have no clue what other females have experienced because by and large they don't talk to me. I'd rather get a nasty response than no response, so in closing, I love men, even though they only reason they say anything to me is because they find me either "deliciously attractive" or hella annoying knowitall. ;)

Well, here are a couple of things I've noticed. Lots of the boyim on this newsgroup go flametastic when they notice a woman with an opinion or some kind of profile as a writer, having the audacity to share her viewpoint. Or have that career. If both, it can get pretty nasty, but that's cowards for ya.

Like Ally (who seems very cool, BTW) I toyed with the idea of posting under a non-gender-specific alias for experimental purposes. But I didn't and was immediately called 'whore' by some shape-shifting creep with a misdirected, punk-rock shaped chip on his shoulder. Salt and vinegar, sir?

Here's what I've learned recently from *some* of the guys posting here:

1. Riot Grrrls are ugly bints who can't play music. 2. Other women in groups were only there to knob the singer or similar alpha males. 3. Women who like music can't possibly know as much as their male counterparts.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong-ola. Happily, though, not all the men here are like that. I'm sure they're just as aware as any woman that for the most part, we still live in a very misogynistic world. Worse, there are a lot of women out there that seem perfectly happy to collude with that particular status quo for a number of reasons, not least of which are regular sex and regular income...putting the 'pliant' into compliant.

But are we kidding ourselves if we think that the men posting on this group are any 'better' than men on the outside, just because they like the same music we do? I've learned never to assume a liberal bias just because of shared cultural appreciation or creativity. I've become suspicious of those who strike an initial ironic, chauvinistic pose just for fun only to discover months later they've become total misogynist, reactionary fools. I've observed and participated in relationships with men who didn't get approval/sex from likeminded others until they were making 'art', and despaired at how cynical and nasty they could be as a result. I've known women who pay lip-service to feminism, only to shaft female friends or colleagues at the first opportunity they're given to do so.

The idealists amongst us will be aware that online space had, at one point, a feeling of non-mainstream utopia. The realists amongst us will be aware that as the Net net widens, what happens here becomes more representative of what happens out there. Things between men and women are getting much more balanced and a lot of people (men and women alike) can't seem to handle that despite their ideals.

So, difficult as it may be, women, try not to take those slings and arrows too personally, but don't collude with them by saying nothing. Ignore comes before ignorance for a reason!

I never experienced the same as Suzy and Ally. I don't interpret their comments/criticism as though they are based on the fact I am female. I do notice that only a few women really obsess over music. Just the other day I was at a meeting (for a music-zine) only to discover I was the only girl there (apart from a girlfriend). I didn't once feel out of place or uncomfortable. In fact I was attacked for being too self-critical about my reviews/interviews. So no I have had any bad experiences. Maybe I am lucky. Or maybe I am too blind and deaf to notice when a guy's ridiculing me. Even if guys did, I wouldn't care.
However I have had guys hit on me saying I am hot because I know so much about music. Weird.

Of course when I re-read my comments on ILM, I notice I need a spell checker. Stupid *bitch*. ;-)

Ally's a chick? Shit...

Riot Grrrls are ugly bints who can't play music.

The post in which I said this was in reference to the Indie Kids thread, I'm sorry for not making that clear. I was in character to make a point, it's not a view I endorse. There are a lot of ugly riot grrrls who can't play music, but I like Sleater-Kinney, I like Heavens To Betsy, and if I like any Bikini Kill it's only because Kate Hanna is hot.

Oddly enough, this sort of ties in with the complaints I've been getting from my friend LC (who isn't 'online') who is sick of being told she's really smart...for a girl. And, predictably, its supposedly well-educated- males making those comments...those who should know *better*.

Hey, I wouldn't even know ally was considered attractive, if she didn't talk about it all the time. Well, okay, not all.

― Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 22 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ahem, Sterling.

polyphony, polyphony they've all got it polyphony...

I can't say I've noticed a great deal of sexism on ILM. Wasn't the person who called Suzy a "whore" one of these stupid little trollers who've been turning up recently? If you carried that argument forward, you could also accuse ILM posters of loving Paul Weller and generally not being able to spell, read, write or argue.

Utopia: ILM is a still a utopia for me, inclusive and full of people who can intelligently, amusingly or thoughtfully debate music, whatever their gender. You don't get that much of that anywhere else in the UK.

Pete: sexism is much easier to detect after a lifetime of having it directed at you. Often it's a pattern in some posters' correspondence rather than any specific comment that alerts me to it. The guy who flames me went on to align the success of Naomi Klein to who her daddy and husband were, and moaned about her university education despite the well-known fact that she dropped out to write and hasn't traded on her lineage etc. to get ahead. As if it had nothing to do with talent or the ability to spot a very crucial thread running through society which is more likely the reason for her success.

Maybe he thinks he's being provocative. I just thought he was cheaper than his shots and lower than his blows and the minute I answered back my gender was called into account in a tedious, clichéd way. So there you are.

Suzy - that guy is a complete prick, he's not representative of ILM generally (whatever is). He likes Paul weller!

Appreciate your point about detecting sexism though.

If ILM is a community, with leaders and celebrities, maybe it should also have its own prisons where offenders like doompatrol are banished, endlessly reduplicating arguments about "soul", authenticity and how hard it is to be 13 years old.

Hmm, and I used to like the Jam for the music until I moved to London (loose centre surrounded by a(n up)tight ring) and met a load of Mod Spods who'd have leg-humped him during their adolescent latency period. Weller winked at me once back in Heavenly Sunday Social days and it gave me the creeps worse than his yucchy orange tan. Much later I met a woman who was in the employ of a studio who PW had an affair with, and for years he emotionally blackmailed her into the servile position of never, ever telling anyone about it for the sake of his rep. Wanker. Abuse of power comes as no surprise, said the artist Jenny Holzer.

Cyberprison for the offensive? Don't think this is such a good idea. Would rather have people in the open even if they're a waste of space, due to belief that however bad they are, censorship is a lot worse.

As for that wankerface not being representative of ILM, that's totally true. ILM is not just made up of pricks trying to wind up everyone (at last count we have two regulars, though I don't read everything so I might miss one of 'em). However I don't think it's true that a negative attitude isn't representative of this board - I'm not the first person to say this and I certainly won't be the last, but phrasing a question as "Courtney Love is a complete whorebag, what say you?" isn't exactly the most positive thing ever, particularly since very few people seemed to have a reason as to why she's a whorebag except that they hate her because she's a slutface, which is just another way of saying whorebag now isn't it?

*shrugs* It's not this board, it's the Internet in general and, hell, the music community in general. It's alright, you deal with it in your own way. If you didn't you'd have to kill yourself over the depression of being treated like you somehow know less because you're lacking a dick.

Which is so stupid because everyone knows it's a proven medical fact that girls mature faster than boys anyhow, so we're automatically smarter.

;)

Nice one, Ally. Briefly, since you reminded me, my only objection to Courtney is that she used feminism as her USP even as she fucked over a lot of women around her for the sake of men, money or both. She does this to men too but at least she does not pretend loyalty to them for the benefit of 15-year-old girls reading her interviews or buying her records. And she expects people to suck up to her for being so good at it. She's just a bully, really. And the worst kind of female misogynist to boot.

The artist Tracey Emin, who spied Ms. Love at a London drinking club, marched over for a chat late one night while drunk (quel surprise). After a few minutes Tracey suddenly shouted, for the benefit of all drinkers, 'for such a large person, you have a tiny little personality.' The people there said it was the first time they'd ever seen Courtney so completely chastised and silenced by *anyone*.About time: I hate people who dish it out but can't take it, and furthermore employ a raft of 'people' to enable them to do so.

dearest suzy:

naomi klein's book was mentioned becuase it is terribly written, etc..etc....I had read it on a suggestion of a friend and then found it interesting that if you did find it horribly written that people were upset with you.

it had nothing to do with her being female. I find her ... well....wretched...and as well, female does not equate with 'writing a masterpiece' if it was Norm Klien do you think that she would have been mentioned. I think it is sad that it was opportunity "no logo"P to be... dunno....empowering, but really, it was a middle class whinge cause the mall lied to her. I did not find the book inspirational nor empowering. I thought, that, maybe, it would have/could have been in a league as The Ragged Trousered Philandropists but it was not. It was a good opportunity for something really good. But it wasnt.

by the way: flannery o'connor rocks. and she is a female, last time I checked.

and by the by, many of my friends are females, who hold a variety of positions, if you may call that, from psychiatrist to single mom on welfare. I enjoy the female 'point of view' and find it informative and lacking the male ego.

and in my 'flame warfare' no one is spared!!!! male or female!!!!

Moihahahahahahasmoiahhahahahahahaa....

by the by:

the last paul weller album that i bought was 'stanley road'. though I do enjoy the song, wildwood.

sensitive joe.

; - )

just an interesting topic for me, cause when I was writing my female character, I bandied the pages off of my female friends who are...cool and girly and hard as fuck with me about the character.

girls are strange. but they sorted out the two female characters really rather quickly.

but sorry. . . I hate Ralph Klien and any offspring. Even if his offspring won the nobel peace prize. He has cut off funds for welfare recipants, single mothers and seniors. Officially, he is a pig in my book.

by the by suzy...

if n.k. has any talent, it's her genius to spot a thread and successfully marketing herself as a counter revolutionary hero(ine).

don't look for sexism in everything because you will find nothing.

Dude, you couldn't just consolidate all that?

Anyhow, Suzy, interesting and mostly true points about Courtney; one thing I never liked about her was her feminist flag, because I don't see the point in it. She IS a rock 'n' roll Madonna (said as if Madonna isn't rock), in that she's an equal opportunity bitch who wants to push everyone's buttons, show herself off, reinvent herself, and get to the top however way is possible. I actually ENJOY that ethos. What I don't enjoy is when Courtney puts on a spin of "girls are doin' it for themselves", because Courtney is doin' it for Courtney and that's the only person she should be doin' it for.

I like the idea of her being a rampant bitch, and she should be completely, 100% honest about it, because I like her that way, a lot.

How come the interesting Courtney discussion is here, while in the Courtney thread you get posts like "She's total trailer trash scum junkie whore, not that people in trailers are necessarily bad".

cause guys can't handle courtney love, true trash with a lot of money who is the rock scene from julian cope to kurt cobain................

by the by...

when researching my female character, I posed as a girl (the character) online in chatrooms like this and man o man...hahahahaaha......crazed.

thank fuck, I'm a boy...that's all I have to say.

courtney is the extreme. she's a bitch, whore, little girl, trash, wealthy, actress, singer, song writer........

she doesnt neatly fit into any stereotypes.

girls are tesseracts. very complex. thousands pieces into one. they hate the sensitive pony tail types but despise the bullies. courtney love is just extreme. love her or hate her, she's still courtney love.

Paul: It would be really tedious to look for sexism everywhere, not to mention totally devaluing to any intelligent argument about sexism. ILM asked about it and I answered as it looked like 'time and place' to me.

As it stands I think you're an equal-opportunity misanthrope with poor intellectual discipline. And whenever you can't win an argument straight up you flame away, mention your book deal or write something that isn't central to the argument at hand. That's why people here are, like, so impressed with you.

Say 'Joe,' as Ally said: anyway you can get your multiple personalities to maybe put everything in one message at a time?

HAHAAHAH!

OH WELL!

do you want to talk about my star wars collection then??

yeah...guilty on many accounts when posting....ya got me!!!!!!! I do gets mighty lazy when posting. I'm a committed rambler and through out things as they come to mind. Usually pull it together or wait until the other person is finished speaking........................

Is it ego? I dunno.

*suzy shouts out yes*

I agree *solemn look*

Oh vell. Sorry making a bad impression but its the only impression that I can make.

Hahaha...

Where is the argument? Every posting here is an agreement, 'cept when it is ludicrous. Honestly, though, where is the argument? So far, people on I love music, agree that soul does not exsist in music, sexism is a bad thing and I'm a twat.

God, I could have told you that I'm a twat if you only asked!

; - )

Oops, I fucked up - instead of 'argument at hand' should have said discussion.

I do find that lesbians tend to bandied around lesbian singer, regardless of talent, more for the sexuality.

do agree with you that censorship is terrible in whatever degree it is practiced. suppose that is why I really don't care what or whatever people think of me on this forum because of the rampant censorship that occurs here (re: poptones and melody maker thread). However, I find it humourous, that, traditionally rock and roll is/was there for the alienated loners, geeks and freeks that, a simple fella' like me is alienated even more?

oh the tradegy of it all.

it's not interesting because no one will respond to any real questions, much like life.

You mention sexism, and you get 4 people in on a thread, one of them flaming, and the other 3 are women. Sorry, I've said just about all I ever need to say on Sexism on the london_indie list lately.

Do I get treated *differently* on the internet cause I'm a woman? Differently as opposed to what? No different from offline in terms of facing loads of sexism, but maybe different cause people can hide behind screen names and be WAY ruder to you online than they ever would be online.

Treated differently than men? Oh, fuck yeah. I used to keep a gender neutral screen name and post as a guy, and I was AMAZED at how much more respect I got. If you are smart, outrageous, outspoken, or whatever as a girl, you get a *lot* worse than if you post the same zany opinions as a guy. It's like... it's not even the things that you say, it's the fact that here's a woman STICKING OUT.

I think it's interesting that a boy brought up this thread, as well (albeit, a boy with a female alter ego). Because... this is just something I've been noticing a lot, the more interviews my band does. Whenever we get interviewed in a "riot grrl" zine or situation, we *always* every single time, get asked "have you encountered a lot of sexism in the music biz?". We *NEVER* get asked that question by the straight press, or by male journalists.

Is that cause boys just don't think about sexism? Or is it because riot grrls are over-attuned to sexism? Or is it because other women in the music scene just KNOW that there is so much sexism that that question is bound to provoke an interesting answer.

The other question that came up on london_indie was, why if you ever *talk* about gender issues in music, or espouse vaguely feminist viewpoints, do you automatically get branded a "riot grrl" no matter what your tastes in music? Talk about pidgeonholing... (and also, interesting the way a phrase meant to *reclaim* language has become an insult in and of itself.)

I guess maybe I'm spoiled, because I do hang out online in a lot of either a) female dominated groups or b) private, filtered groups - but I do know a *lot* of very intelligent, articulate, knowledgable about music rather than just fancying the boys (not that we don't fancy the boys- just I thought that was an interesting point that Ally brought up, that I do experience) WOMEN who are utter music freaks.

I mostly agree with Suzy and Ally (oh my god! I agreed with Ally! Call the press and take a picture!!!) and otherwise, I'm just rambling telling you things you already knew.

You mention sexism, and you get 4 people in on a thread, one of them flaming, and the other 3 are women.

Uh, I'm not sure what to say, besides that I hope I'm not contributing to the kind of thing you and Ally and Suzy are talking about. Since women are a fairly small minority on ILM, and (besides the occasional neuromancer/doompatrol argument) people here mostly don't respond to each other's posts all that much, just mostly state their opinion and go, I'm not sure there is even much to discuss.

Though it would be interesting to discuss *why* this is such an overwhelmingly male board.

That's a question I've actually pondered a few times, Patrick. I mean, according to most things I've read and been told, the Internet is split basically 50/50 right now in terms of people who log onto anything. I do actually think the stereotype of the music obsessive is a male thing - most people I've known who were hardcore into music of any type were guys. So yeah, from personal experience it's because there are just a lot more guys who are obsessive about these things. It's not to say that girls don't do it either, obviously, but it just seems to be a more male-psyche thing, judging by my friends.

It's too tough a question to really think about, I reckon.

That was my first conclusion too, but I suspect that there are other mailing lists and forums about music which have much bigger female participation. Until recently, I belonged to the Postcard2 (alt- country) mailing list which has just as much of a music-geek bent as ILM (though in a very different way) and though it's mostly male, there is definitely more of a female presence on there than in here.

Warning: heralding into dangerous stereotypical country now...

I'd say it's becaues country music is a format more marketed to women than rock. Like it or not, this board has a heavy indie rock and pure rock bent, and those are genres traditionally marketed towards men. They have a higher male fan base because of this, in my experience.

It would also be interesting to me to see whether there *is* a female readership that remains primarily lurking. (any female lurkers out there reading this, PLEASE just break your silence to note on this thread. I really am curious, and there's no way to tell on a BBS)

I don't know if it's that I tend to stick around longer on female- dominated lists (better atmosphere, a lot of the time) or if it's my taste in music. For the record, A) a lot of those lists are very indie rock, and B) I don't really see ILM as indie-heavy. Far more of a pop bent, at least lately.

Thinking about the female-dominated lists, I have to wonder if it was because they were *moderated* by women, cause almost all of them were. That would go a long way towards explaining the female-friendly attitudes espoused there...

too busy being dutiful slave in my 'spare time' away from being prime breadwinner

The reason I've resisted posting thus far is that I find the whole subject so disheartening. I even considered leaving the board, but there are too many writers I like to totally give it up. That said, I do find a kind of attitude that's pervasive on this particular board that just isn't welcoming to females. It's not even the whole courtney/whore debacle (though that is a big part of it -- to be honest I don't even want to talk about it anymore because I find it too depressing and there's nothing new to say), but I also think the whole obsession with list making, COD, etc. is also a part of it too when it's used as a barrier to actually talking about the music. Too many times I've seen artists listed or summarily approved or rejected without any real talk of why people like it or hate it, etc. Pure listmaking and the like is similar to trainspotting (the actual hobby), which is also a hobby made up mostly of men. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I think women are more interested in back-and- forth conversation and discussion.

Oh, and by no means is this meant as indictment of all the men on ILM, because there are a lot of decent people here. And some of the most misogynist things I have read on this board have been written by a woman. So please don't take this is as some sort of simplistic men= bad rant.

trainspotting, record-collecting, list-making, internet overuse, categorizing = mildly autistic. ILM is way asperger's, mea culpa.

i will check out female-dominated sites tomorrow (any good ones ?) to attempt more discussion - reading this it seems patronizing - don't mean it to be

my better half has a point, goodnight

I was thinking more of the mailing lists I had been on, which is probably a bit of a cheat since email seems to lend itself to more to that type of discussion anyway.

I also think (to bring up another stereotypical male/female notion) that there is a lot more interpersonal warmth (and I don't mean anything lovey-dovey or sappy) happening on Postcard2, whereas ILM to me has more of a competitive battle-of-the-wits thing going on, which makes it frequently very funny, but maybe not all that welcoming to people who just wanna have a straightforward discussion about music. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

This is only tangentially related to the sexism issue we started with, but I will bring it back eventually. Bear with me.

There *is* a different attitude in general, between Bulletin Board type forums and mailing list type forums. I don't know if this is because of the further layer of anonymity that BBS provide- you don't even really have to provide your own email. Or if it's something even more symbolic- because it's not landing in your inbox, it's something external that doesn't come into your world, people feel the need to be more defensive/offensive.

Thinking about the female dominated (or at least equally gender divided) forums I've been on, surprisingly, almost *all* of them have been either email lists, or forums which you have to register. (thus meaning there is a filter involved, and you do have to be held accountable for your - at least pretended- identity.)

Is the tone, and therefore "female-hostile" (except for some extremely outspoken and resilient females) attitude of ILM not actually anything to do with the *subject* at all, but more to do with the actual *medium* itself?

Could it not be sexism, but technology? Am I starting to think too intellectually about subjects which do not bear the inspection until and I resemble Momus and my head explodes? ;-)

spot on - ive had misgivings about the tech for a while - playing with identity can be fun but there needs to be boundaries and given the mail i've received tonight i think a return to the ol' tindersticks board is in order for yr racer

Trollers and assholes and people posting under other people's names are a fairly recent issue, though, no ? They weren't much of a factor before, and even now it's mostly one person.

In response to Tom's question, I don't think I treat the women on the board any differently in most respects, but I think I'd be instinctively less likely to tell off a woman who said something really obnoxious. I realize how unfair that is, and I'm working on it.

As for the Riot Grrl thing, it's clearly awful to say that Riot Grrls are ugly bints, but I dislike the fact that you can't really criticise them either. I got in trouble once because a girl and I were talking music, and I said for the most part, I didn't tend to like bands fronted by girls, and I hate riot girl stuff. I was more thinking about the fact that I have trouble enjoying the sound of the angry female voice in punk rock, but it was a dumb thing to say, and not a fair generalization anyways because I like tons of female artists, including early PJ Harvey which is angry female rock if ever I heard it. Anyways, based on what I had said, the next day she had titled a ranting newsgroup post "Dave, Woman Hater" and it took me the rest of the summer to try to discourage the rumour that I am a misogynist bastard.

It's too easy to get all punk and say men are assholes across the board, and I feel like that's what a lot of Riot Grrl music and politics do, so while I can sympathize with the Riot Girl position, I find the militance and attitudes of some of its proponents a little frustrating at times.

Any open forum invites assholes. So the option is you either take everything private, which I am against (half the time a "private" mailing list or forum for a small group turns into the person who started it inviting every one of their friends and it's just as bad as public anyhow), or you just live with it and move on. I find it funny, really, the people that are the types to make up identities, post as other people, and just generally be dickheads, because let's face it, how sad do you have to be that that's your idea of fun? I'm annoyed enough that I'm being MYSELF on a message board all day at work, much less being someone else.

Dave- it is an unfortunate state of affairs that so many people assume that being feminist, and by extension Riot Grrl, is about hating men. Sometimes I wonder if this is a projection of men's thinly veiled misogeny, until I realise that as many women, in fact some of them feminists or riot grrls themselves- feel and act the same way.

I am resolutely pro-woman. I am, however, *NOT* anti-male. It's a very simple mind that can only think in terms of opposites. I forget who said it, but it was originally said about particle physics, but I'll use it here to defend my philosophy. "The opposite of a SIMPLE truth is merely false. The opposite of a PROFOUND truth is also true."

I wish I could say the same for ALL feminists. People who feed on hate inspire nothing but hate for us, and for our cause. (god that sounded pompous, sorry.)

Ally- the "deal with it or move on" attitude is all very well for people with iron-clad egos, and a love of conflict. However, neither of those traits are "stereotypically feminine." I find that women who are intelligent, but not as outspoken, do not enjoy this sort of open conflict, and thrive far more easily on closed forums.

{Not even closed, in terms of restricted membership or invite only, but meaning closed, in terms of people have to put effort into joining (even if it's only signing up for a mailing list) and therefore have an investment in keeping "nice". (for lack of a better word)}

Now please, let's stop agreeing before I have the urge to, like, do your hair or something. ;-P

Kate: If you do my hair then we can totally do facials and have a pillow fight in our underwear and then we could totally be the exact stereotype of girls! That would be totally awesome.

Okay, fine, enough of that, I know. I've never particularly found mailing lists to be MUCH more pleasant than open forums, though I will say they do have a bit of an easier time because they generally have moderators. It all depends on what you're willing to withstand and what you're willing to ignore. On some mailing lists people can be extrodinarily nasty - as I said earlier, it's got this mentality that the odd person out really is the odd person out and they're basically forced into quitting the list.

Really, I can't be bothered with taking any of this internet crap too seriously anymore. I used to get bothered by the way people acted, but these days it's more humorous than anything else.

I think the anonymity hurts everyone involved too, anyhow. If we were all required to post with our real names and everything, would there be this problem? Probably not.

After reading Kate's plea to lurkers, I felt I should respond. I did start an answer after Ally's first response, but I gave it up because this is something that is really hard to do anything about, so it seemed pointless.

I think Kate is right in saying that posting on a bulletin board gives people more freedom than on a mailing list. I don't think it's just an issue of anonymity because people acquire identities on the board even if they post under different names. (And the cases in which someone would use an email address to move the discussion off the board or list I think are rare.) The other factor that Kate mentioned, that people choose to look at the answers to a specific question rather than finding a load of posts in their inbox, I think is relevant. I don't think that freedom is a bad thing, although it can be abused.

The "battle-of-the-wits thing going on" Patrick mentions is partially why I enjoy reading stuff here. People seem to put more thought into their answers when the involvement isn't passive (although, of course, there is the decision to join and to stay on a list), and discussion tends to be more focused. I don't think people reply just to show off. And I don't think that the S and D and C or D threads just have obsessive list-type answers. People really get into describing what moves them in a song.

Finally, I don't think women's responses are read differently than men's by women or men - just judging from the continuity of the exchange and from introspection in my own case. The only time it was an issue for me was when Kim posted a response on the Indie Kids thread. I just wanted to cheer her on but didn't. I also have to admit that I don't have the "deal with it or move on" attitude, so I do a lot of self-censoring before I post.

The fact that there are so few women on this board does seem to make the environment hostile. Comments about gender and topics in which gender is an issue sound a lot different in this context than they otherwise would.

kate: point taken, but I didn't think feminism and Riot Grrl-ism were synonymous. I too am resolutely pro-woman, but I always took Riot Grrls to be a much more extreme form of feminism, and one that I can't really agree with a lot of the time.

yeah, that thread made me feel weird, and it's true that it was all about the usual suspects that suddenly *weren't* posting. Silence speaks volumes yadda yadda yadda...

I'm a woman, and I am certainly a big fan of ILM. I have posted a scant few times and felt a bit embarrasssed about my replies in hindsight, but I do enjoy this message board. While I can carry interesting conversation, I do not write as entertainingly or insightfully as any of you. I and my friend, also a girl, are the two most knowledgable, most "hardcore" music fans I know (altough I'll admit to a bias there, and also I live in a very small community). Thank you for your time.

While I can carry interesting conversation, I do not write as entertainingly or insightfully as any of you.

Give yourself some more credit! I think there is room for most people here (I won't say everybody, because if I'm honest there are a couple of idiots I would love to get rid of). But I've liked your postings.

Yes, not to mention that I can't think of any posters here who've not dropped some apalling critical/literary/general clunkers.

There have been some particularly cerebral threads recently. I can't contribute much to them, and I wouldn't be surprised if others felt trepidation too. I guess some people are also fighting the temptation to cut n' paste a few posts into pseuds corner entries ;). I hope it doesn't put people off from contributing. There are always plenty of less rarefied (and fun) topics to chew over too. It takes all sorts.

I've been online forever, it seems, so I've gotten pretty jaded about all of this. When I was younger, the idea that knowledge of music was a "guy's thing" really pissed me off and inspired me to get a handle on it. When I was younger I both felt more threatened and I was taken less seriously. I haven't had those problems lately. Or maybe it's just that I now feel superior to all of that, so it doesn't threaten me. Most of the clods you encounter online are just too easy. When I get pissed about sexism, it's usually about sexism directed at someone else, such as a female performer. I tend not to be fazed by "boy culture" stuff, since I've always been kind of a tomboy anyway. Constant remarks about women being fat and/or old irritate me the most, especially when the women are not fat, not old and not ugly.

Anyway, now that I'm older, I realize that most music is crap anyway. I can't believe how many records I bought in my heyday. I still love music, but I'm less driven to *acquire*.

When I started reading and contributing to this site, I wanted to use a male or non-gender-specific pseudonym, because it seemed like such an incredible relief not to have to be a girl, just for a while. But you can't, really, because 'It's gotta start someplace - it's gotta start sometime' (as the great feminist theorist Sonny Bono said.) We might get less credit as girls, now, but it's for the benefit of the girls that will come after us, I suppose.

I wonder whether the typical 'one-upmanship', prove your intelligence brand of music criticism doesn't sound a little false coming from girls, because it's much less likely they'd dare to speak that way in day to day conversation. What is the 'natural' voice for female music critics, or is the desire to find one faulty in itself?

Tom E said:

>>> Yes, not to mention that I can't think of any posters here who've not dropped some apalling critical/literary/general clunkers.

I'm sure I don't know what you mean. Do you want to list my clunkers?

Just thought I'd revive this thread cause I seem to have been guilty of appearing a boorish male today. Are there any female ILM readers who have been put off posting by this kind of thing lately?

Nick, don't worry about it - when I said "nebbish boy", I didn't mean overbearing, just nitpicky, but I'm not annoyed about it anymore so forget it.

One more lurker for the record.

I can't deny that there've been few women in good bands (Gilli Smyth, Tina Weymouth, a few others less significant to me) but hell, why wouldn't we like music? This is a fun website and if anyone is treated differently cos of their sex, that's stupid. You should treat someone differently cos of who they are and what they say.

Always the philosopher of moral issues, that's me.

no one else answered this thread when anna rose revived it but I am interested in current answers

I'm a woman, and in my life I've only met one other woman who has come close to being in my music-nerd ballpark. I tend to forget about my gender when I'm shooting the shit with male rock nerds, and god knows they hardly ever bring those gender issues up -- but it is something I'm acutely aware of when I talk to female music fans. It seems they're not that interested in history beyond the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame-prescribed Canon of Acceptable Heroes (Patti Smith, or if they're feeling adventurous, Patsy Cline). Usually they're very knowledgeable about indie rock, maybe emo, a smattering of '77 punk, but that's it. There's just a huge gap separating the things I can rattle on about at length and their limited body of reference. When I get tired of talking about Liliput (the Greil Marcus-approved girl- punk Canon meets Kill Rock Stars), maybe I'll feel like talking about Neu!, and 19 times out of 20 these indie girls will have no fucking idea. And it's also been my experience that whenever I learn that a girl is into a cool band, and I ask her about it, she tells me her "boyfriend turned her on to them." I end up feeling pretty alienated -- sure, I've had boyfriends turn me on to some interesting music, but the turn-ons were reciprocal! The majority of my music collection comprises artists I've discovered on my own, the hard way, without the assistance of Ultra-Neato Boyfriends with Awesome Taste. I wear the pants. I'm the mixtape-maker. Huzzah!

What's the thread topic again? Oh... women music fans online. I don't correspond with many these days, but I was involved with a particular group where the women were really into bland, NPR-ish alt-country; the Cocteau Twins; Crowded House; just nothing too esoteric or daring. Meanwhile, I'd be riffing with the rock boys about the geeky pleasures of Steely Dan's Katy Lied. I'm even worse now than I was three years ago...

JBR - I really object to the idea that girls are worse than boys because their music tastes aren't 'original.' There isn't really a female or gay musical 'shape' to the critical canon - I know that sounds hopelessly postmodern, but I think it's really true. I think that if you really got to know these girls, maybe you'd find out that they have a true love for something like Wham and the Eurhythmics (or whatever, not necessarily pop, maybe The Doors, I don't know) - so these girls will just have a certain set of indie bands they can recite as liking, and underneath that, their own true taste that's vague and never been able to really coalesce, because there's no received form for it to be given. It's a lot easier for boys to simply move step by step up the critical ladder. That's why I loved reading Chuck Eddy so much - it was a real revelation to me - because his music criticism simultaneously sends up the idea that there can be a serious canon, and encourages the idea that your own intuitive response to music can be formed into a cohesive argument that's just as strong and useful as the critical framework that everyone around you takes seriously. If more of that type of criticism was available, perhaps more girls would understand how to express their own ideas.

I also have a minor, and not very deeply felt, objection to the idea that breadth of musical knowledge = depth. I wouldn't divide it down gender lines but the most sincere music fan I know only owns ten records and his favourite one is 'The Hunter' by Blondie - but he really fucking loves that record and I think he'd enter a duel over it. I think the '12 cd' dismissal is a bit trite. It's more the quality of the listening than the amount that counts for me. Chuck Eddy, who I just praised, is obviously a collector but has a great breadth and depth of knowledge and I think you do too - you're obviously fortunate enough to both know a lot and have a sincere appreciation of music that makes your writing lively and honest.

In some cases, perhaps the whole emphasis on owning a lot of records is a bit of a capitulation to the music industry. I mean, I know people have always loved collecting books and art, but of all the contemporary art industries, the music industry have got to be the cleverest at exploiting people's desire to impress through ownership. I definitely don't think that applies to you, though. In fact, any girl who becomes a really big record collector is probably not doing it from a desire to impress - because it's such an aberrant thing to do. I'm saying this as a defense of the poor bludgeoned girl, not as a criticism of you.

I have the same problem with reading, though - I've never met a girl who reads broadly. I've always thought it would be great to meet a girl who liked victorian and Russian literature and romance and detective books etc.

haf to agree w/Maryann here. I have abt 350-400 recs (not a lot, i think by ILM 'standards') but it's about how passionate you feel abt it too.

But until i met some of the other ILM-ers I didn't used to know anybody w/ a rec collection or with much interest in music. Why should anyone care?

''The majority of my music collection comprises artists I've discovered on my own, the hard way, without the assistance of Ultra- Neato Boyfriends with Awesome Taste. I wear the pants. I'm the mixtape-maker. Huzzah!''

so bloody what? Discovering on your own= you have enough money to work through all this stuff. I wish I had someone to make it easier for me (though I'm not saying I would go out w/someone because of their rec collection, though who knows, the two might be linked in some magical way).

I don't often post on ILM, but I feel I've been treated very well. Even when I've adopted overwhelmingly unpopular, nobody's ever insulted me, made unfair assumptions about my beliefs or mischaracterized my comments due to my gender.

By contrast, I sense that the phenomenon Tom describes occurs 80-90% of the time on sports threads and fora. I've noticed in those [sports-related] contexts that when I post under a gender-neutral alias people are more likely to read the substance of my comments accurately and respond seriously than when I am using a female alias. When I use a gender-neutral alias, sports posters generally assume I am male because when they disagree with me they will write "SHUT UP DUDE YOUR ON CRACK." Some female sports posters get all huffy at this point and point out that they are not male, but I really have no problem being disagreed with as a "dude" or a "stupid cow" so long as it is regarding the substance of what I am saying.

yr totally not taking advantage of the fact that as a woman, you can not give a shit about sports and nobody will think there's something wrong with you

Ha ha ron that's good. Wow sports forums! Didn't even know ...

I still think there is a question: how are girls to write? You COULD master Meltzer-ese - but that's kind of evading your 'duty'. Though I'm almost doing it here. I sometimes think, you know who provided an alternative? Lisa Carver. By gossiping at every opportunity, by making everything personal, etc. But I haven't read her for a long time and looking back the 'I wish I could dance with Satan, it would be like kissing fire' thing is kind of predictable after a while. I guess it's a stupid question.

Haha ron, thanks for illustrating my point.

I'd like to take this revived-board opportunity to answer an old question from Masonic Boom:

...The more interviews my band does[,] whenever we get interviewed in a "riot grrl" zine or situation, we *always* every single time, get asked "have you encountered a lot of sexism in the music biz?". We *NEVER* get asked that question by the straight press, or by male journalists. Is that cause boys just don't think about sexism? Or is it because riot grrls are over-attuned to sexism? Or is it because other women in the music scene just KNOW that there is so much sexism that that question is bound to provoke an interesting answer.

As a journalist, the reason I've never asked that question is because I generally thought that female musicians would be really sick and tired of being asked that question. Probably because of my age (I'm 27) and the fact that most of my formative music-press reading was done in the '90s, when "Women in Rock" issues of Rolling Stone were rampant, I sort of figured that they'd want to just talk about music and not quite so much about "being female in the industry." Probably gross oversensitivity on my part--obviously if Masonic is any indication--but I can't imagine I'm the only one who refrains for that reason. (Needless to say, I'll probably not refrain anymore.)

i always felt that it was almost insulting to be discussing a female act and make a big deal of her gender. like their talent and skills are secondary. like every male wants to keep them down or something.