Does anyone else think Physical Graffiti is Zep’s worst album?

Not counting Coda, of course, or The Song Remains the Same (a flaccid record of a bloated band near their nadir). I know a lot of folks think it would have been a great single record, but I can only rep for a side’s worth of songs. Maybe a little more, but only since the songs are all so fucking long. You could probably cobble together a great album from the best of PG and Presence together.

I can’t find any evidence on the internet that I’m not the only one who rates Presence and ITTOD more highly (and Presence only barely, maybe tied for worst). ITTOD is pretty great all the way through, Hot Dog excepted.

Sorry to dredge up the dinosaur bones. I’d have posted this on the Hoffman forums instead, but slogging through the responses there would have been soul-crushing.

I don’t actually need any discussion on this (altho go ahead), I just wanted to get it off my chest. Kthanks!

i think it's their best along with houses and presence? the '74 songs are basically a showcase of how on fire they were as a band at that point. i get objecting to the inclusion of the outtakes from previous albums but... the outtakes are so good?

no, its one of their best

possibly we have different zep priorities

Yeah, no, esp if the comparison is the next two.

It's the best album by one of the best bands. I can imagine that some people might disagree with that assessment but I would refer those people to a neurologist.

Or a...what's an ear doctor called? An earologist? Maybe a referral to one of those, too. They can help u get the wax out.

I’m considering bringing this up with my therapist later today. “I think i need to reconsider my Zep priorities.”

not their best album, but maybe second or third best

no one thinks this

carouselaryngologist

No way is it their worst, but I usually just listen to the "new" material and skip most of the outtakes they used to pad it out.

Didn't Physical Graffiti win the ILM Zep albums poll?

Oh, you know, wait, yes, I probably actually would say that Physical Graffiti is their second-best album, just after Coverdale/Page. Always forget that one, somehow!

I agree with OP (roughly tied with the debut as my least fav Zep album), but more than half of Physical Graffiti is still fantastic. Houses is their best.

I've talked about this before on here, but I might have a duff pressing or something because my copy of this album has a kind of muffled, claustrophobic sound that I've associate with overblown 70s albums I don't like - specifically "Quadrophenia" and "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway". So, yes, this is the worst Led Zeppelin album I've heard - given that I've never heard "Presence" or the later albums.

Threads that should be posts: The Thread.

xpost The 2008 remix of the Lamb rescues it from the murk and is the best of that strange reissue series.

Wanton Song alone makes PG untouchable.

Zeppelin has one of the most close-to-perfect studio discographies, they’re basically like CBAT—->Gaucho era Steely Dan, though I think ITTOD is more of a step down than SD ever had during that time.

Which is to say there are no real wrong answers and like SD my Zep favorite changes all the time. PG is admittedly the present favorite.

For me PG probably ranks somewhere in the middle of their discography - I love most of it but I kind of tune out after 'Wanton Song'.

what tracks are outtakes on this?

Boogie w Stu
Black County Wommman

Even night flight and Seaside and Custard may fit the bill

Maybe not the hookiest, but the funkiest LZ album

If you believe the wiki, way more of the tracks are outtakes than I thought (7/15) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Graffiti#Track_listing

Boogie w Stu

I love this song tbh, the slapback drum effect is so great + Ian Stewart's ridiculous piano playing

Houses would have been crazy with these 3 outtakes included !

Same, was never sure if it was a tape loop or a restrained live take where he was playing with the delay tempo

boogie with stu, night flight, and down by the seaside were all outtakes from led zeppelin iv

The difference in Plant's voice between the outtakes and the originals is stark.

Best lz album

great album. not into “kashmir” though.

love boogie with stu, love when plant does fake elvis

It's weird, there are few albums I've listened to more than PG but I somehow always forget that this is the one with 'Kashmir' on it.

boogie with stu, night flight, and down by the seaside were all outtakes from led zeppelin iv

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, March 11, 2020 12:13 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

outtakes...rule

Houses would have been crazy with these 3 outtakes included !

― AlXTC from Paris, Wednesday, March 11, 2020 5:08 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

If they'd put The Rover and the title track on there instead of The Crunge and D'yer Maker it'd be my favourite LZ record, no contest.

ok, now i'm curious

i put together a playlist of "physical graffiti" from the '74 tracks (excluding "trampled under foot" which i apparently at some point decided i hated enough to keep from my library; why i kept "custard pie" is not something i super understand) and while i was at it a playlist of "houses of the holy" with the title track and "the rover" substituted for "the crunge" and "d'yer maker"

my general impression is that the '74 zep stuff - the first studio recordings after plant fucked his voice in '73 - are where we really start getting into "late zeppelin", the tendency towards turning every song into an epic (with accompanying plod and turgidness) becoming very pronounced - the seven '74 recordings i kept total 47 minutes, seven outtakes sum up to less than half an hour. none of the '74 songs are shorter than four minutes. three are longer than eight - before this album only two songs in their whole discography reached that length, and it's not like zep had to this point been short on epics. my impression is further that the inclusion of the outtakes leavens this wagnerian self-importance and lends the album a sense of balance it wouldn't otherwise have - one of the few albums (along with "the white album") that is arguably improved by padding it to a double.

i'm listening to "in my time of dying" rn and ppl who complain about this song's length don't get it

it's a crazy, unbelievably locked-in performance that keeps changing

I love that one.

I don't love zep in general.

"i'm going to make it my dying dying dying *cough* coughhh"

"that's gotta be the one hasn't it!"

“in my time of dying” is 10/10

A prime entry for the 'terrible ideas' thread is my desire to put on a show which is just me drumming my way through the entirety of this album, which would naturally entail long stretches of me doing nothing at all (see: the first third of 'In My Time...').

Oh also, NB: I do not play the drums. But I've got this, man, I can feel it.

oh please do not get me wrong i fucking love "in my time of dying", i've fucking loved "in my time of dying" since i was 12

i've also loved "the crunge" since i was 12 (yes it's a james brown pastiche but it's a james brown pastiche in fucking _9/8_), but is "houses of the holy" a better album if you swap out "the crunge" and "d'yer maker" for "houses of the holy" and "the rover"? yes, it is. i mean i get where zep was going with this, they maybe weren't sure about have an album that was wall to wall killer hard rock riffs with only a couple atmo ballads thrown in to leaven it up, but their penchant for genre pastiche didn't, overall, serve them any better than it served roger waters in early pink floyd.

it's not whether or not the tentpoles of "physical graffiti" are good songs or not. all i can tell you is that i listened to the '74 songs (again, less "trampled under foot") back to back and as strong as all of those songs are individually, i really do think they benefit from being interspersed with shorter songs sung by a younger man who hadn't completely blown out his voice. including "down by the seaside", wtf at all of you dissing that, i will always remember plant's duet with tori amos on that one as being the sole non-terrible track on "encomium"

"Down by the Seaside" is fantastic, I believe its Neil Young-pastiche nature has been noted before hereabouts

Yeah I love Down by the Seaside.

I know what Kate means. I still prefer to listen to the new songs by themselves. And I actually do listen to the song "House of the Holy" slotted into the album of the same name in place of "The Crunge" on my iPod. (To me, it's a half-assed James Brown imitation so I don't miss it.) But the new songs by themselves can feel pretty monolithic, especially because the tracks are so long, so if you like a little variety, you need to break it up more.

pg > houses

Definitely. Houses possibly my least favorite : even though the band is on fire throughout I don't dig Plant on this except for the godly "Dancing Days".

dyer maker is good, tho

PBKR do you also hate Eddie Cochrane Gene Vincent Elvis et al

― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Tuesday, March 17, 2020 2:36 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nah, I love that shit in the right time and place, but not in the middle of Sandy Denny, My Sweet Satan, and phat hobbit jamz.

R&R is just so boring and straightforward - like the foot is on the gas pedal the whole way with no variation in lyrics or dynamics. And it doesn't really rock in my opinion. And I love the straightforward over the top blues stuff on I and II, so I am not opposed to their take on trad rock/blues. Something like Good Times Bad Times just slays R&R, cause the start-stop makes it interesting.

I get I am being irrational (and not talking about PG).

The whole song sounds like someone getting the shit beaten out of them. It fucking rules.

the foot is on the gas pedal the whole way with no variation in lyrics or dynamics.

you say this like it's a bad thing ;)

I actually do think there's a fair bit of development in the lyrics to "Rock and Roll". It becomes gradually clearer as the song progresses that he is singing about a failing marriage.

One thing Malkmus got right is Rock and Roll is the worst song on IV by a country mile; maybe the worst song on the first 6 albums.

― Why, I would make a fantastic Nero! (PBKR)

worse than "living loving maid"? worse than "d'yer maker"? pbkr there is challops and then there is the patently absurd. your statement strains credulity.

It's a totally straightforward song but it just works for me, I think largely on the strength of the vocal and drum performances and guitar tone. I definitely wouldn't rank it as best on the album but I do like it a lot.xp

"D'yer Maker" sucks, though.

xp Yes, I personally would take Living Loving Maid and D'yer Maker over Rock and Roll, no challops intended.

I first heard/had LZ II in the 80s on cassette, which flipped the order of Heartbreaker (ending Side 1) and Thank You (starting Side 2). The meandering organ fade on the latter led into the opening blast of Living Loving Maid and I always thought of the two as inseparable, loved them together. Try it!

I know D'yer Maker is considered cod reggae or something, but I always loved it and The Crunge. They may be genre exercises, but to me they make the album more rhythmically interesting.

Frankly, I am surprised R&R is getting this kind of defense - I figured it would be a R&R dunk contest.

Erik Davis was good on RnR in his 33 1/3 book, I don't have it on hand but makes a good argument iirc as an antidote to the self-seriousness of contemporaneous "American Pie" and a reclamation of the primal in rock — "punk" to that extent

I also remember reading there that Page used to keep a picture of James Buton in his wallet

Anyway this song rules but then I LOVE "Hot Dog" too so

Burton

the drums totally make "rock n roll"

the lyrics of LLMaid are indefensibly stupid but the riff is off the fucking hook you nutjobs

One thing Malkmus got right is Rock and Roll is the worst song on IV by a country mile; maybe the worst song on the first 6 albums.

y'all I just jammed the fuck outta RnR, high five

hey i didn't read the whole thread because the premise is laughable but why are there so many posts on a thread where the OP says:
"The Song Remains the Same (a flaccid record of a bloated band near their nadir). " but then says he likes Presence and Out Door?

you can't take a poster seriously who writes that. The Song Remains The Same is the '73 tour. You would have to be absolute idiot liar uneducated person about Zep to write that.
So why is this supposed intelligent community lending credence to an idiot that writes "The Song Remains the Same (a flaccid record of a bloated band near their nadir). " when The Song Remains The Same is '73 tour? But then says he likes Presence and Out Door? So clearly it's not the "nadir" in this poster's mind. Can anyone explain that to me?

supposed intelligent community lending credence to an idiot

new borad description

o no, an absolute idiot liar uneducated person

i don't think anybody's ever gonna update the borad description again xpost

yo does anyone else mentally add "I HOPE SO" and "DOES ANYBODY REMEMBER LAUGHTER" when they listen to the studio Stairway?

i especially hate "living loving maid" because for a while there every single classic rock station had to follow up "heartbreaker", which is just fucking amazing all-time shit, with goddamn "living loving maid". maybe they still do, i heard a classic rock station here in portland do it three years ago (the classic rock station was on because the friend i was hanging out with was deliberately trying to torment me, because i'm fucking hilarious when i'm upset i guess)

xp yes!

Hm, so most pressings of II have the tracks in this order?: https://www.discogs.com/fr/Led-Zeppelin-Led-Zeppelin-II/master/4170

The cassette I got in 89 or 90 and the digital version I got later both reverse the order of "Heartbreaker" and "Thank You" so that the first side ends with "Heartbreaker" and the second starts with "Thank You". Was this only done on Canadian pressings or something?? It makes more sense now why radio stations combine "Heartbreaker" and "Living Loving Maid".

Oh, maybe it was done for the cassette?: https://www.discogs.com/Led-Zeppelin-Led-Zeppelin-II/release/4404429

i think i agree that rock n roll is my least favorite song on IV but that is not what i would call a crime

this will be an unpopular opinion, but battle of evermore is my least favorite on IV

damn bro :(

lol one of my best friends is a local playwright and director and he directed a ten minute D&D parody play and he basically said "as homework, listen to the Battle of Evermore".

love that t00n

rock n roll is fun and simple it was the first song i learned with a band when I was 12, it is a punk song

also wrt Evermore....Sandy Denny

I agree that is an unpopular opinion, and with cause

fp’d u mookie

here's what you need to check out if you want rock and roll

http://open.spotify.com/album/6lrsmEZZa3zXQdU3Uu9Hid

OK I just tortured myself by reading through the thread. A few cool heads who get it

"Custard Pie" and "Houses Of the Holy" are the greatest Zep tracks of all time are you idiots kidding me. Bonham RIPS on these tracks and Houses has such a great hook. and of course NIGHT FLIGHT OH MAMA I THINK IT'S TIME I'M LEAVING NOTHING HERE TO MAKE ME STAY
"Down By the Seaside" sounds like the Rolling Stones although Page's flanged out solo does take it into diff territory ah fuck it this is pointless Zeppelin is the best band ever.

Ten Years Gone.

My god man. There is nothing like it in rock.

What I love about "In The Light" is the way during the chorus the guitar is ascending but the bass is descending
Very cool
I also loved that it opened me up to Indian music. Life changing, really.

In The Light is just about the greatest song ever (and also contains Zep's best riff). I've heard it a thousand times and it still gets me pumped every time

yeah Mindhunter using that at the end of season one was brilliant

I still don't understand the premise of this thread's title, like it just does not compute even a little

this will be an unpopular opinion, but battle of evermore is my least favorite on IV

I agree w this *high five*

I do not agree that this is mookieproof's least favorite

Physical Graffiti is the first CD I ever bought (before I even had a CD player, just in anticipation of how awesome it was going to be to have one). Will always be my favorite.

can we stop talking shit about zep

it is unseemly

only cool heads can talk shit about zep, but talking shit about zep means you're not a cool head hmmm

the only part of IV I’m not really down with is the middle 8 in “goin to California”

"the lemon song"... well, zep was into amping up the blues, and here they amp up some of its more ridiculous qualities, turning a pleasantly tasteless double entendre into what i personally like to interpret as plant moaning at great length about pissing himself. still, it's not as interminable a blues workout as "how many more times" off the first album, which just doesn't fucking end.

Lemon Song is funky as hell, JPJ doing James Jamerson. And HMMT, besides having a killer low-key groove, has one of my favourite Zep asides, when they break into The Hunter.

damn “how many more times” is one of my favorite zep tunes, like top 5, such an epic rollicking ride

Re: Living Love Maid, it is <not> on the crop circle Box Set from ‘91 or whenever, the songs for which were selected by the band. I remember reading somewhere later that they made sure to leave certain songs off...

i would never say "worst" cause i really struggle with the first one, and ITtOD is like "what are these song titles again?" but PG is probably the one I've tried the most to get into without ever really having it cohere in my brain. i wouldn't necessarily delete any of the epics... even "In My Time of Dying," which feels like a dull skipper when it starts, eventually gets to those incredible guitar showcases from Page - maybe the closest thing they have to the feeling I got watching The a Song Remains The Same on the big screen on powerful edibles and going "dammmmmmn they really were rock gods huh?" same story with "Ten Years Gone," though that has significantly fewer "oh right, THIS awesome part" moments imo.

but I'd be okay with forcing some of the epics down to 5-minute versions, and snipping the less compelling of the miscellaneous tracks. i'm a basic pop-rock guy, and my favorite version of the band really is III-IV-Houses. and starting on Houses, I start getting the sense on certain tracks that they're GOING for that level of punchy perfection, but the song isn't quite there.

that rarely results in total disaster, because they're just such interesting musicians. even when the riff they're working isn't quite "Black Dog," or the pseudo-funky groove they're hammering isn't quite "Misty Mountain Hop," it's probably gonna basically work. still, it's really things like "Night Flight," "Trampled Under Foot," "Black Country Woman," and "The Wanton Song" that I keep THINKING i'm gonna like more than i do.

some double albums it's like, wow, they were at this incredibly fertile point, one gem after another, so many musical directions they were feverish to explore... and some are like, they had maybe 2.25 sides of good to great material, and decided to just empty the vaults in a massive act of rounding-up. this one is explicitly the latter; maybe I've just always wanted to convince myself it was the former. but it's nice spending time paying close attention and trying.

having said all that: i spent enough time with this album this week that all kinds of little bits keep popping into my head unbidden, especially the incredible guitar parts buried in the folds of Ten Years Gone and In My Time of Dying. when i try to remember the rest of those songs it all turns to mist though.

not to spam you but i think my issue might just be that Plant's not really in the big vocal/lyrical hooks business anymore. he's fitting in more as another piece of instrumental texture, sometimes strummingly, sometimes shriekingly, sometimes raggedly, but these songs just aren't structured around lyrical verses and choruses. and i certainly can't be bothered to pay attention to whatever hippie ramblings he's warbling out over top of the core Ten Years Gone riff.

but i like a song i can sing in the shower, dang it! when he does have a hook it's often kinda annoying, like "peeeeeople turned a-wayyyy." or it's a blatant Ritchie Valens lift that he can't even completely remember. ok he kinda kills it on "Custard Pie" though.