What the Hell

However I will still defend "fly" as a really beautiful addition to the lexicon -- how does "fly" "bastardize"? Bastardization implies a degradation of meaning; "fly" actual refines the communication of meaning

A "beautiful" addition? I really don't see that.

"how does 'fly' 'bastardize'? Bastardization implies a degradation of meaning"

Precisely.

"'fly' actual refines the communication of meaning"

Explain, please.

"as soon as languages stop admitting new words, they die, and rather quickly -- this is a matter of historical record"

It's not a 'new word,' but rather an old world improperly utilized.

"hey alex, is 'rock' as an adjective a betterment of the english language?"

No, because it's either a noun or a verb. Have you ever heard me use 'rock' as an adjective?

"rock solid"

"rock steady"

"not rock enough"

"rock song"

"rock sound"

Let's all go watch Pootie Tang and laugh at the endless vain sturggle that is lexicography.

a good point here. Isn't it true that the french government have passed a law prohibiting certain english words being used in ads and shop windows.

''my point is that this fellow's use of the phrase "know what I'm sayin'" raises no amused/annoyed/otherwise upraised eyebrows, even though he's clearly attempting to ape a dialect as Brando might, only minus the skill.''

but is it a dialect?

Actually, it technically does. Egg = describing the noun "dish".

(in a sense they mean the same thing, anyway)

Alex, fellow Killing Joke admirer, in order to discuss these we're going to have to put our cards on the table, and it seems like you have "issues" as they say with dialect: that is, you don't care for the pretty convulsive dances that hip-hop culture has put English through. That's fine; there are plenty of dialects that for whatever reason just don't punch my buttons in the right way; but Tom above cites the following sentence:

All the fly shorties wants to roll with me

Totally perfect example. How else might the idea communicated by "fly" here be expressed? "Cool"? Not even close, nor any of its analogues. "Fly" is a subset of cool, implying a certain degree of acceptance within a social circle, adherence to certain subcultural sets of expectations, etc etc etc. Were the line "All the young women who frequent the same in-vogue social circles that I frequent want to ride in my car," we'd still be missing most of the line above, because "roll with me" serves up a whole host of connotations that you just can't from any other three-word phrase attempting to express the same idea.

So that's what I mean by "refines meaning." That's the general purpose of dialect - to economize expression. My point wasn't "this dialect is lame" -- only that attempting to adopt it in order to lay claim to a culture which could in no imaginable circumstances actually be one's own seems very odd to me, and in the all-European context in question, even odder.

P.S. egg dish.

Check out Mighty Crown, a soundsystem from Japan (www.mightycrown.com). They chat in Jamaican patois and have beaten sounds from around the world to be named "World Soundclash Champions." Or, if you'd rather, check out Gentleman--the latest dancehall sensation who is white as snow and German.

I think the real question here is the following: When does a dialect/accent/manner of speaking become simply part and parcel of the conventions of a certain musical genre?

In any event, at the risk of beating a by now very dead horse, I don't think I'm letting any cats out of the bag by admitting that I think hip hop slang is ridiculous, stupid and regressive and not a "beautiful" development of the lexicon of English in the slightest.

This is my opinion. Yours may differ. Fair enough.

"Mr. in NYC, I'm sorry but it appears your computer has been damaged by a curious mixture of beer and spittle. The pattern of damage indicates expectoration with some force, on a regular, even nightly, basis. Furthermore the range and intensity of liquid impact suggests that these events occured from a posture of relaxation, therefore implying that they were of an involuntary nature."

The rather bold assertion that it achieves said end is in itself highly debatable. If slang -- *ANY* variant of slang, not just Hip Hop slang (since, god forbid, if I single out Hip Hop's slang, I apparently must therefore be decrying the entirety of Black Culture) does provide any progression, it is the cutting of corners in the same way simply reading the Cliff's Notes guide to a novel robs the reader the entire rich experience of reading the definite artcle. Moreover, while indeed some bits and pieces of slang have wound up in common usage ("cool" etc.), it's hardly displaced the language as a whole.

Don't know the Normans, jones, sorry.

Hip Hop Slang (as in: "yo, what's the dilly? Shit, dawg, it's bangin', son" etc. etc.) remains ridiculous, stupid and....yes....*REGRESSIVE* to me. Sorry. Deal with it. Does this mean that I think the entirety of Hip Hop is ridiculous, stupid and regressive? No sir. I just find this particular trapping -- in much the same way I cringed when members of "my beloved" Punk Rock community adopted their own silly vocabulary tics (whether that's saying "dude" constantly, or adopting a faux British accent, etc.) -- to be sorta juvenile. Sorry, but that's just the way I feel. If you want to believe describing someone's "crib" as "fly" and asking "knowhum'sayin'?" after every other sentence is a beautiful advancement of language and culture, you remain quite free to do so. Just don't ask me to agree with you.

But Alex, you don't seem to have any reasons for this opinion. Had you been around at the birth of English (what Jones was referring to above), would you have resisted the Norman influence (yes mark s INFLUENCE in a near-literal sense) to "corrupt" Anglo-Saxon? If you had, the incredibly versatile language which we today know as "English" would never have come into being.

It's not a question of how you "feel" -- linguists can school you on this one. (Note that the use of "school" as a verb is a useful import from hiphop parole.) The vocabularly in question is part of a dialect, and one which has some great characteristics. (You might as well be saying: "I know some Spanish, and 'jabon' is a really stupid word for 'soap.'") That some people speak it poorly (repetition etc) says nothing whatsoever about the nature of the dialect, which, again, has afforded the English language whole new avenues of expression -- ones which seem to have a universal appeal, judging from our friend in the Dutch band Brainpower.

Honour the fire!!!

I don't have to have been present during the conception of a language to know when it's being stepped all over.

Honour da Fire, Clarke.

Hip Hop Slang (as in: "yo, what'sda dilly? Shit, dawg, it'sbangin', son" etc. etc.) remains ridiculous, mad stupid an'....yeea ....*REGRESSIVE* ta me. Sorry. Deal wiff it. Does dis here mean dat I th'o't da entirety o' Hip Hop iz ridiculous, mad stupid an' regressive? No sir. I just find dis here particular trapping -- in much da same way I cringed when members o' "my beloved" Punk Rock community adopted they own silly vocabulary tics (whether dat'ssaying "dude" constantly, or adopting uh faux British accent, etc.) -- ta be sorta juvenile. Sorry, but dat'sjust da way I feel. If ya wants ta believe describing someone's"crib" as "fly" an' asking "knowhum'sayin'?" afta every other sentence iz uh fine advancement o' language an' culture, ya remain quite free ta do so. Just don' ax me ta agree wiff ya. you know das right!

See, Alex? It sounds so much better this way!

To all my dead homiez, have a phat Thanksgiving, yo.
(or in my case, ANGSTgiving!)

HONOUR THE FIRE!

have you at least drawn flames down the sides or something with a sharpie?

The word comes from to disrespect, so I think its 'dis'. With one s, please.

I caught this morning morning's minion, king-
dom of daylight's dauphin, dapple-dáwn-drawn Falcon, in his riding
Of the rólling level úndernéath him steady áir, & stríding
High there, how he rung upon the rein of a wimpling wing
In his ecstasy! then off, off forth on swing,
As a skate's heel sweeps smooth on a bow-bend: the hurl & gliding
Rebuffed the big wind. My heart in hiding
Stirred for a bird, -- the achieve of, the mastery of the thing!

Brute beauty & valour & act, oh, air, pride, plume, here
Buckle! AND the fire that breaks from thee then, a billion
Times told lovelier, more dangerous, o my chevalier!
No wónder of it: shéer plód makes plóugh down síllion
Shine, & blue-bleak embers, ah my dear,
Fall, gáll themsélves, & gásh góld-vermílion.

At your leisue, Alex -- Godspeed yr Tangerine iMac! -- can you think of a more concise way of expressing the phrase "to my dead homies" that includes all the various connotations that the phrase "dead homies" carries? I can't, is why I ask.