Hate The Drug / Love The Music

From the "Bands you keep trying to like but can't get into" thread:

lol, I don't do 420 listens b/c I mostly have a bad paranoid time rather than a fun chill time, but I could definitely see it working.

― emil.y, Tuesday, 6 October 2020 16:52 bookmarkflaglink

Glad it’s not just me. Surely there’s an ILX support group thread for people who like the idea of weed but are incapable of not going from zero to dark whenever they smoke it. I do love how music sounds on weed and I seriously envy people who can be blazed all the time while avoiding gazing into the dark abyss of their soul but I inevitably start hearing weird shit in the music (even instrumental music) and having bad thoughts, no matter what strain I smoke.

― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 6 October 2020 22:04 bookmarkflaglink

Like, I listen to a ton of overtly stoner music, but I absolutely cannot take what cannabis does to my psyche.

There have got to be other drug / music combinations where music is intended to be listened to on a drug but you... do not get along with that drug. (We've talked about this a little on one of the psych threads recently...)

Just a brief plea to keep things chill here: this thread is for your personal experiences. It is not a thread for ~drugs are GREBT!!!~ proselytising or ~all drugs are TERRIBLE you horrible monsters~ demonising, though please stay of the individual local laws of various posters' countries and understand that your laws may not be the same.

It is a source of great mystery and confusion and shame to me, that I love nothing more in this world than wibbling, repetitive beats, but Ecstasy, as a drug, does absolutely *nothing* for me and I have always wondered how my life would be different if it had.

Have to admit I didn't really get proper dance music until I tried E for the first time, and then it all clicked. I was converted overnight.

But I've often heard people remark half-jokingly about certain types of house/techno: "You have to be on drugs to like this music", which... well maybe there's a kernel of truth in there - not saying you HAVE to; they're are plenty of examples of teetotal techno-heads. But now, of course, I can happily listen to dance music without being off my box, while admitting that being in the right set and setting on the right substances were in many ways a gateway towards me appreciating these sounds in the first place.

Similar to my first experiences with w33d and getting into reggae, doom metal, IDM at the same time (the two are entertwined) - I'm p sure that at that young age it opened my ears up and made me less close-minded about what it is I like about music, and what I look for.

As for the question; I'm not really sure I have a direct answer. I mean, I was listening to Alice In Chains last night and I felt like I could empathise with the lyrics without having ever tried heroin.

But how much music is necessarily intended to be listened to on a drug? Certainly a lot of music is designed for the dancefloor, even radio pop music, and therefore alcohol could possibly play a part. But they play I Gotta Feeling on the radio to parents on the Monday morning school run, which is contextually bonkers ("Tonight's gonna be a good night"? Unless you're singing about dozing off to Brooklyn 99, I'm not sure).

The most obvious cliched one is reggae/dub + w33d, which I kind of agree is kinda like steak and chips. It just seems to help make my mind focus on bass + echo in a particular way; turns the background chug into something more 3D. But I've listened to dub not stoned and it's not that I don't appreciate it.

Are there examples of music which really has been created by design to be listened to on a specific drug and (presumably) in no other state?

Plenty of dance music, arguably - but how much of it is "This would sound GREAT in a big club" as opposed to "This would sound GREAT on E / K"?

I think there's sometimes a presumption (especially among tee-totallers) that drink/drugs are the ultimate aim as opposed to a sideline. For example, I have friends who don't drink and have grown to associate the idea of going to the pub with people getting smashed - possibly because of formative experiences, I dunno. But it's like the concept of going to the pub to enjoy time with other people in a convivial setting doesn't occur to them: As far as they're concerned, people go to pubs to get drunk and clubs to take drugs.

honestly I would blaze up and listen to music all day were it not for the fact that it causes me to snack like a bear prepping for hibernation. not helpful!!

keep thinking misreading this as a Roxy Music thread

Good thread idea!

As I wrote above, I keep trying with cannabis because music - especially reggae and dance music, both of which I love - irrefutably sounds better when you are baked. If I could just turn off the rest of my brain, I'd smoke a lot more. There are dispensaries where I live and I will occasionally pick up some flower or edibles because I want desperately to enjoy the positive aspects of cannabis without all the negative ones, but it's such a fragile balance.

Someone on the original thread suggested microdosing, which I have done successfully (usually in 2.5-5mg doses via mints), but the effect is so minimal that I often forget that I took anything. And yet, if I bump up to 7.5, I get wiggy.

I have always heard that indica produces fewer psychological effects than sativa so I've always gone for indica dominant strains, but I'm wondering if my brain chemistry is such that I should try a true sativa (possibly one with a lower THC level?). I love the idea of being creative and "up" - I have historically loved taking amphetamines and such - but I really want to avoid psychological collapse.

There have been studies about the anxiety-and-paranoia thing and cannabis, of course, and lots of external factors about why some lucky people can take a huge bong rip and go about their day, while others (like me) take a single hit of ACDC and spend the afternoon under the blankets, chewing on peppercorn, and waiting for it to be over. There's something about where the THC hits your brain (the front or the back, or something), as well as obvious stuff like preexisting anxiety and depression issues. I dunno. But I'd love to figure it out!

Ecstasy, as a drug, does absolutely *nothing* for me

Same - well nothing or paranoia, 100% the reverse of the 'open to the love of the universe and fellow humans' experience that everyone else seemed to have. the one time i can remember that i took it in a musical setting was for the warp 10th anniverary party; i recall listening to autechre, teeth grinding away, not feeling much, the set finished i thought 'what? they've only been playing for 5 minutes'.

Here's a thing that would be really helpful to me, as someone for whom cannabis is "absolutely not, the carpets will start shouting at me" hell, and for whom ecstacy is "people take drugs to feel like this? I have to take drugs to *not* feel like this!"

Could you explain, what exactly changes in the music listening experience, on these chemicals? How is music altered? How are your perceptions altered?

I suspect there is a really big correlation between 'neurotypicality' (whatever that is) and non-neurotypicality (autisms, ADHD/ADD, anxiety) that has a lot to do with brain chemistry and brain states which means either "I don't *get* that effect" or "that effect is nothing new to me?" or "this triggers unexpected side effects which make the experience not worth it" - which colour the experiences?

So, if you don't mind talking about this on a public forum - getting the people for whom the drugs *do* work, to talk about the specific ways in which they *work*, might be helpful for us - for whom they don't work to also discuss and compare our experiences, and work out why?

Like, I am 100% convinced that my love of super-repetitive, droney music with lots of build is 100% about autism for me, it is audio stimming, and therefore amazing. And I do think that for people who are *not* autistic, a lot of the way they describe ecstacy and some aspects of cannabis, it *sounds* like it puts them in a kind of "all gates open, everything all at once, no filters at all" state which is very similar to how many autistic people experience the world ~all the time~.

Also, if there's a mod about, please, can you maybe de-index this thread?

If you're especially sensitive to w33d it might be helpful to combine it with meditation in a quiet place for at least say 10-20 minutes as it first comes on. Sit there and feel / breathe through the stuff that comes up. You'll feel when it's done. Then it's time to stick the music in or whatever. I do think of it as a wonderful medicine these days that can also be a super fun companion but it has to be approached with respect.

* music on or whatever

Like, I listen to a ton of overtly stoner music, but I absolutely cannot take what cannabis does to my psyche.

Same for me, these days, but I wonder if I would like the more psychedelic end of my music interest without ever having been a stoner, as I was for a couple of years in my teens.

It's similar with ecstasy, a drug I love but take maybe once a year now. I can certainly hugely enjoy banging dance music without being under the influence of it, stone cold sober in fact, but did my former considerable use open up the requisite neural pathways? I suspect it at least sped up my understanding of the genre(s).

I don't like the effects of weed nor pungent stench of it. Sheeit it is so strong these days I can smell it off people smoking it 90 metres in front of me up the road. When my arsehole neighbor smokes it in his back yard he might as well blow the smoke into a bellows and pump it straight into my kitchen window. It can enhance music yes, but I can't live with effects of it and the smell of it makes me feel physically ill.

great thread idea, count me among those for whom weed never quite worked like i wished it was supposed to. i only ever smoked when it was around in social situations, and subsequently would have an awful miserable paranoid time being high & surrounded by people. the only time i ever had an enjoyable experience while was the one and only time i ever smoked it while home alone, i stayed up all night making mixtapes it was rad. now i'm older, i probably havent smoked in fifteen years, and its been on my mind again. i've got a nice home to hang out in, a better record collection, more free time at night. what i'm saying is... i think i might be ready to take a smoke of weed and listen to a jazz record.

Could you explain, what exactly changes in the music listening experience, on these chemicals? How is music altered? How are your perceptions altered?

Think I touched on this upthread, but especially when I was younger, I often noticed the 'feel' of the music change if I smoked w33d. Dub music, for example, can be pretty boring and repetitive after a while. Smoking meant I could train my mind less on what was happening peripherally and focus on what's bubbling under there: The characteristics and qualities of the bassline, the way the snare echo recedes into the rest of the music. One time as a student I listened to Autechre's EP7 in the dark on headphones after getting very high and just letting the mind cinema play-out - it was very visual.

As for E, music can accompany a body-high, the feeling of rushing, your finger-tips tingling as the music rises and falls.

In my experience, coke makes most music sound terrible - the only thing people are interested in is the sound of their own voices, and that's partly why I've never been a fan.

w33d for me quite simply makes my brain focus more on sonics and less on any extra-sonic aspects (like the meaning of lyrics for instance)

Could you explain, what exactly changes in the music listening experience, on these chemicals? How is music altered? How are your perceptions altered?

This is the only part of weed that really works for me, and the reason I keep trying to use it recreationally. I hear music completely differently on cannabis. I can hone in on individual parts in ways I usually can't. Jazz is one of my favorite things to listen to stoned because, even as a non musician, I can hear the decisions being made. I follow just the bass line or just the piano and I marvel at the quick thinking and the virtuosity. I also feel like a lot of music is encoded with little easter eggs for people who are high. There are some mixing decisions that I refuse to believe are anything but winks to stoners.

I suspect there is a really big correlation between 'neurotypicality' (whatever that is) and non-neurotypicality (autisms, ADHD/ADD, anxiety) that has a lot to do with brain chemistry and brain states which means either "I don't *get* that effect" or "that effect is nothing new to me?" or "this triggers unexpected side effects which make the experience not worth it" - which colour the experiences?

I think you are on to something. I suffer from ADHD and have taken a daily low dose Adderall for many years. It's a great drug for me. As far as I know I am not autistic but I've never been tested and I had a good friend who once suspected that I was mildly autistic based on certain habits I have (won't go into that here).

If anyone itt who has ADD, ADHD, anxiety, or autism and also smokes weed without a problem feels comfortable discussing it, I for one would love to hear about your experiences.

These are the kind of threads that make me wish this forum allowed for a tad more anonymity.

I’m straight, not like Spotify Hipster Johnny, so pretty much most music except for that one band from SF.

I suspect there is a really big correlation between 'neurotypicality' (whatever that is) and non-neurotypicality (autisms, ADHD/ADD, anxiety) that has a lot to do with brain chemistry and brain states which means either "I don't *get* that effect" or "that effect is nothing new to me?" or "this triggers unexpected side effects which make the experience not worth it" - which colour the experiences?

this interests me too.

trying E for the first time really was an epiphany, far beyond "I like dance music now". I felt like neural pathways being created - a very sudden realisation of "Hey, actually talking to strangers in a social context ISN'T so bad!"; "People are all largely similar in terms of hopes and dreams, no matter who they are"; and "maybe I'm not so different from everyone else after all".

That was the day I went from being a highly-reticent and introverted person who exhibited a lot of neuro-diverse behaviour to a somewhat more extroverted person (at least on the surface - there's still a whole bundle of things going on inside).

I come from a country where cannabis use is quasi nonexistent and even though I grew up in North America, part of me has always viewed it as that one facet of ‘Western’ (scare quotes intended) culture I’ll never get it, so as with most drugs, I don’t feel like I’m really missing out.

Anyway, OP snipped the third post after emil.y and Paul’s, so to reiterate: every time I try smoking up, my anxiety goes through the roof and the rare benefits I get out of the experience are overwhelmed by the sheer awfulness of a death-defying heart rate, even at lower doses. Weed just isn’t for everyone and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Like, my best weed-related memories are ‘I managed to look and act normal despite the fact that I was dying inside, wow so kewl’.

This is the only part of weed that really works for me, and the reason I keep trying to use it recreationally. I hear music completely differently on cannabis. I can hone in on individual parts in ways I usually can't. Jazz is one of my favorite things to listen to stoned because, even as a non musician, I can hear the decisions being made. I follow just the bass line or just the piano and I marvel at the quick thinking and the virtuosity. I also feel like a lot of music is encoded with little easter eggs for people who are high. There are some mixing decisions that I refuse to believe are anything but winks to stoners.

for me the best place to listen to music is in the car. because driving takes so little of your brain power (at least if you live in a smallish town), and there's nothing else for you to do, you can focus pretty heavily on the music. I think cannabis sort of recreates that at home, by making you not really want to do anything else. I don't really know if it's so much that it makes the music sound better as it is it puts you in the zone where you can really enjoy something. Maybe these are the same thing?

that doesn't sound very fun. i don't drugs much, but my friend made some nice weed brownies that made everything sound like the best peanut butter and jelly sandwich

frogbs OTM, but also opiates

Weed for me enhances music (and food) but it has nothing to do with a change in the manner of perception ad far as I can tell and generally goes along the lines of "being high has made me feel nice > nice things seem a bit nicer". As a very dysthymic individual achieving a state of mind that is an improvement over my regular way of feeling can be crucial in enjoying things sometimes sadly. Music isn't improved if I get high and feel anxious/para (which depends mainly on my state of mind going into the high and/or the size of the dose - too much is usually not great).

My preferred drugs: opiates, acid, ecstasy have sort of a similar effect tbh. The drug makes me feel euphoria and therefore the euphoric and joyful aspect of the music is amplified. I suppose acid can sometimes engender musical effects in me that are analogous to stereotypical trippy visuals they cause (things shimmering, moving, and being more saturated): I perceive a piece of music more or less the same as I have before but the elements seem changed and more brilliant.

Theres some music that seems made for drugs: heroin and spacemen 3, ecstasy and house music, acid and acid rock etc. but am sober at the moment and considering making that an indefinite thing and I dont think "the effect sobriety will have on my enjoyment of music" is something I worry about, or should

If you're especially sensitive to w33d it might be helpful to combine it with meditation in a quiet place for at least say 10-20 minutes as it first comes on. Sit there and feel / breathe through the stuff that comes up.

― Kieran Arse (Noel Emits), Wednesday, 7 October 2020

Haha, see meditation is another of those ~neurotypical people things~ I have never managed to make work with my brain. Some people are just wired differently, it's OK.

Think I touched on this upthread, but especially when I was younger, I often noticed the 'feel' of the music change if I smoked w33d. Dub music, for example, can be pretty boring and repetitive after a while. Smoking meant I could train my mind less on what was happening peripherally and focus on what's bubbling under there: The characteristics and qualities of the bassline, the way the snare echo recedes into the rest of the music.

― Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Wednesday, 7 October 2020

See, my brain really isn't bothered by repetition on that level, in fact, I'm really attracted to music that does the same thing over and over in bubbling-under kinds of ways. This is one of the things about my autism (and seems to be a thing for autists in general) - that we just don't experience the acclimatisation of 'stuff getting boring' upon repetition. Something that's good the first time, is just as good, in fact, maybe even *better* on the 20th time. Stuff being soothing and familiarly repetitive makes it *more* possible to enjoy the wibbly, changeable stuff in a way that less same-y music sometimes just feels overwhelming.

But the kind of *sound* of it - the one thing that used to change for me, when I was still able to tolerate cannabis, was that sound would get deeper, more three-dimensional, more ECHOEY in a way that was really intriguing - it produced an effect (and weirdly, lithium, which I took for a few years while I was misdiagnosed as bipolar) produced very similar auditory effects. That it was almost like audio 'trails' - that a sound would echo and repeat in weird, shimmering, slightly warped ways, while under the influence of cannabis.

Dub is *full* of those kinds of sounds - both because it is intended to duplicate the effects of the drug, but also because it's full of things that sound good when run through the mental echo effects of the drug. What's weird is, I loved dub from the moment I heard it, before I'd ever even considered taking drugs - because of those far-out, spacey, echoey sounds. But it wasn't until I tried cannabis, that I understood where they got the *idea* for those sounds?

I had the same experience with 'psychedelic' sounds and other kinds of hallucinogens, like "OOooooh, is *that* what that comes from" - but always having loved the sounds, just having instantly, sugar-hit, candy rush "this sound is the best thing ever!" reactions to those kinds of sounds from a young age.

(I do wonder if that comes from being autistic, like I have always had the ability to kind of auto-stim myself into something like an ecstatic trance state, since a very young age.)

trying E for the first time really was an epiphany, far beyond "I like dance music now". I felt like neural pathways being created - a very sudden realisation of "Hey, actually talking to strangers in a social context ISN'T so bad!"; "People are all largely similar in terms of hopes and dreams, no matter who they are"; and "maybe I'm not so different from everyone else after all".

That was the day I went from being a highly-reticent and introverted person who exhibited a lot of neuro-diverse behaviour to a somewhat more extroverted person (at least on the surface - there's still a whole bundle of things going on inside).

― Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Wednesday, 7 October 2020

See, I really, really wish I'd had this kind of experience. Like, people talk about how powerful E is, I listen to The Shamen going on about it, and - it's like, it has the ability to make shy, socially awkward people come out of themselves and connect with other people in this amazing way. I genuinely do think that E has significant social (and maybe clinical) applications in terms of overcoming social awkwardness, shyness, anxiety, depression, etc.

But what it can't do is making someone who is non-neurotypical into a neurotypical. Like, I was given E by a girl I suspect was trying to get off with me - and it made me totally uninterested in her or other human beings, and what I wanted to do was rub my hair against a carpeted section of the wall for several hours. While she got off and had this amazing time (which is why I don't think I just got a bad pill - I think my own brain chemistry just doesn't click with E.)

Like, the only drug that has made me feel like "ah, I can overcome my social anxiety and be all comradely with strangers because all humans have the same hopes and dreams" - is alcohol. Because that has the effect of numbing excessive sensory input and lowering social inhibitions. Alcohol is the "I feel better about myself, so I feel better about whatever music is playing."

Other drugs - especially the hallucinogenic ones - have genuinely changed *what the music sounds like* in the first place.

The part from Paul's post that frogbs quoted above really sums it up spectacularly for me.

Also, I was diagnosed with ADHD and social anxiety disorder many years ago but left therapy as a teen without resolving anything and haven't gone back. Would love to be able to afford it again. Herb tends to magnify these problems for me in ways that can get very unhealthy at times, but in some ways has also allowed me to be more introspective about the issues I face.

I have read (from decently well-informed perspectives) that part of what w33d does is continually reset short-term memory.

So it's harder to concentrate, in some ways. (That is, harder to follow a series of linear developments - you forget where you were and what you were supposed to be paying attention to).

But it's paradoxically easier to concentrate, in other ways. (You can shut off extramusical distractions and just groove, because you're relaxed and not also worrying about work and the laundry and your electric bill or whatever.)

HOWEVER for me the main benefit of the short-memory erasure effect is that you have way less ability to get bored. This can show benefits especially in the long-form blues-based jam-band aesthetic. You can hear a bad Dead tribute band playing a 15-minute version of "Further on Down the Road" (or whatever) and you're happier about just vibing to it because you forget that you've been listening to the same three or four chords for seven minutes. Sorry, I know it's a stereotype - but some stereotypes arrive for a reason.

A similar side effect is the ability to laugh at the same bad joke over and over again.

Personally I like w33d (just edible baked goods these days because Smoking is Bad For You, or so I hear). In normal non-high life, I sometimes just don't have the patience or attention span to sit and listen to music as the main activity. I get bored or anxious and want to be doing something else as well. w33d puts me in a state where I can just listen and enjoy.

tbh, i'm not sure i always LOVE amoking w33d. it really depends. sometimes i get cool, relaxing, mellow vibes. but more often than not i'm like "huh i wish my housemate would stop talking to me because i just want to sit down and not have to pretend i'm listening to him; also why is the salt shaker there? it's doing my head in. god, let me listen to joni mitchell in peace!"

Dub is *full* of those kinds of sounds - both because it is intended to duplicate the effects of the drug

No it isn't. Not only did King Tubby never smoke cannabis in his life, or take any other kind of stimulant, but he wouldn't allow it to be smoked in his studio.

‘Relaxing’ is absolutely the last qualifier I would use to describe my experiences with pot. Weird how that works.

I hate that cliche about dub and reggae.

And wb Tom.

fair point about Tubby (also, nice to see u posting again) but um isn't weed, like, the sacramental herb of the Rastafarian religion?

to pom: Absolutely true that your experience may vary.

Personally, I have a rule where I already have to be in a good mood. Drugs often press the accelerator on whatever mood I'm in. So if I'm anxious or stressed or in a bad mood it will make it worse, not better, so it's best to abstain or wait.

as a total stoner, I gotta say that it's nice to see a lot of people here who *don't* like it and are still total music fiends

Just passing, pom, got no intention whatsoever of staying.

Haha, see meditation is another of those ~neurotypical people things~ I have never managed to make work with my brain. Some people are just wired differently, it's OK.

In this intance "meditation" means more or less sitting quietly and feeling through and into the energetic stuff that happens. I could say a bit more but this isn't directly about the experience of music. Sorry I mentioned it.

as per the thread question, I don't plan on ever doing heroin but boy do I love listening to Spacemen 3 and Mazzy Star's sonic evocations of the drug

fair point about Tubby (also, nice to see u posting again) but um isn't weed, like, the sacramental herb of the Rastafarian religion?

It is but reggae was hardly the sole preserve of Rastas.

I have read (from decently well-informed perspectives) that part of what w33d does is continually reset short-term memory.

you dont say

If anyone itt who has ADD, ADHD, anxiety, or autism and also smokes weed without a problem feels comfortable discussing it, I for one would love to hear about your experiences.

hi i have anxiety. i have not been diagnosed with adhd but a lot of my experiences in adulthood have been consistent with it, who knows though. i sometimes get weird looks when i tell ppl weed helps me tremendously with my anxiety, but it does, especially social, with none of the destructive effects of alcohol (which if i get at all beyond regular drunk i get depressed and oversensitive and low-key angry, all of my least favorite conditions at once). it just kind of soothes my nerves and keeps me open to the natural rhythms of a conversation, and my brain is at least partially inoculated against overthinking anything, which allows me to surprise myself (one of the reasons weed and writing have gone really well together for me over the past few years, although i think weed may also slow down my process)

however, i used to not understand or enjoy weed at all; it took me forever to just learn how to smoke it correctly, and then it would just lock me up inside of myself and make me a giggling idiot. the shift happened after a particularly bad breakup; i was hanging out at my best friend's apartment and we were smoking weed and watching ghost hunters and for the first time since the breakup i felt an incredible lightness and relief and openness to the goodness in all things and i was like "wow... this is what weed is for?" then tr*mp got elected and i full-on transformed into a stoner bc it was either that or probably die of alcoholism (that sounds dramatic but it was part of the decision-making process regardless)

like other ppl in this thread it has opened up music to me that may have otherwise been inaccessible, cf. my phish phase during the summer (sometimes the 420 approach has dubious benefits). in many ways my experience of music is the same—i loved house, metal, dub, jazz, etc. without needing a weed portal to open it up—but the music just fundamentally feels deeper, probably because of the enhanced focus, the way it peels back the eyelids of your own perception. paul, i find that our experiences listening to jazz stoned are identical, it is the best music in the world for when you just want to notice the brilliance of a player's mental shifts, or work yourself into the odd spaces that more out-there stuff works itself into

i also pretty much exclusively smoke sativa bc i prefer the brain high; indica makes me tired and i don't feel it as distinctly

i have never taken ecstasy as far as i know. i have done molly and the effect it has on me is indistinguishable from coke, i.e. it makes me suicidally depressed, so i can't do it ever again

I have read (from decently well-informed perspectives) that part of what w33d does is continually reset short-term memory.

So it's harder to concentrate, in some ways. (That is, harder to follow a series of linear developments - you forget where you were and what you were supposed to be paying attention to).

But it's paradoxically easier to concentrate, in other ways. (You can shut off extramusical distractions and just groove, because you're relaxed and not also worrying about work and the laundry and your electric bill or whatever.)

This would explain why I find watching movies stoned quite hard and easy at the same time. If I'm watching some sort of crime drama, forget it - I'm going to completely lose track of the plot. If I'm watching Jodorowsky then that's fantastic because I can let my mind wonder while admiring all the crazy bullshit.

it definitely helps you notice some of the odd and subtle choices the artists make. taking Underworld for an example (always a 420 favorite) there are moments where the beat briefly changes up where my sober brain previously had just filled in the blanks. also there were a couple of bass lines that I actually just heard wrong, like where you think it's moving up and down the scale but it's actually just two notes that are panned in a way to create sort of an aural illusion

_fair point about Tubby (also, nice to see u posting again) but um isn't weed, like, the sacramental herb of the Rastafarian religion?_

It is but reggae was hardly the sole preserve of Rastas.

this might sound strange (and I know I'm prone to thinking about music in visual terms), but i think w33d can give certain sounds and instruments more character: especially noticeable with things like dub and jazz etc. suddenly that bassline sounds like your mate bounding up to you in the street; that little trumpet lick makes it sound like he's dressed like a dandy in a fancy hat; that sax line signifies a bird swooping down to grab it off his head.... I think about music in these visual and more abstract ways a lot, but especially when stoned

bro, it's down to the strain bro, just relax bro, this is different yeah bro

The meditation I meant wasn't about "thoughts" per se. More working with chi in the body. Mj can (and basically does) activate this and it 'demands' to be worked with; felt deeply and allowed to move. Anxiety and other unpleasant effects are often a result of this increased energy + pre-existing blockages, so there's an opportunity there to work with that. Not doing so, adding more resistance can result in things getting more unpleasant.

Thoughts are energetic presences as well though, prior to the supposed content. It doesn't take some special skill to be with thoughts in that way because that's already what they are, even if you are caught up in content.

I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between intrusive thoughts and... thoughts.

What are non-intrusive thoughts? And what do intrusive thoughts intrude on?

There's this endless double-bind where

There's something interesting here to do with shared context, or the lack thereof and trying to know or guess where it's supposed to be. Is that the sort of thing you mean?

There's often very little, perhaps none, and yet I'd prefer not to have to be a verbose bore. Trying to guage this right in posts is very difficult and evidently I get it 'wrong' quite often. I also tend to assume this is a general issue in communication but apparently autism has a bearing on this. Or rather, neurotypicality constitutes a degree of shared context that otherwise can only be guessed at with some effort.

I really would like to understand this better.

Noel, babe, you and I do not conceive the world in the same way - and it looks like we use language in quite different ways. Which is fine and beautiful and good, my friend! The world needs many different kinds of interpretations, and of course we need different language to talk about those interpretations.

But it makes communication difficult, when we think we are talking about the same things, but actually we aren't.

I was an enthusiastic psychonaut for many years, I look upon those years and those experiences very positively. I understand all of the importance of 'set and setting' with regards to the use of any kind of mind-expanding agent, I am very aware, as someone who was in therapy from the age of 13, about how one brings one's own experiences and attitudes and fears to any new situation or experience - including drug experiences. I know that 9 times out of 10, the bad trip is on account of something the user brought with them, into that trip, and not about the mind-altering drug. (This is true even of non-hallucinogenic drugs, such as alcohol - it's taken me years of bad and good experiences to understand that there are certain *circumstances* under which I absolutely cannot and must not use alcohol!)

I am aware of all that. I am also aware, from many years of experiences (i.e. not from a lack of trying) that my brain chemistry just does not work, with certain drugs. This makes me sad! Like Paul, I enjoyed many other aspects of those drugs. But for me, there was no amount of 'set and setting' or 'try this different strain' that can make cannabis OK for me to use. That's fine! People are allowed to be different. You have good experiences, I can have bad experiences, Paul can try to experiment to find ways that mitigate *his* specific experiences. This is why there is chocolate *and* vanilla!

But there really is a point where it becomes, as Paul describes "Doctor says, if a thing hurts, don't do that thing" - and that is a legitimate response - and continuing to tell people to try it some other way they haven't thought of, comes across as... badgering. It's not fun to be badgered about something supposedly fun, that you've explained multiple times why it doesn't work for you. This is what makes this kind of conversation become unfun, very fast. I'm not mad at you, and I'm trying really hard to project an attitude of 'I think we're all friends here having a friendly conversation' but this is a boundary for me.

I have never said that it takes some 'special skill' in order to be able to meditate or use cannabis, or do this thing we are talking about, however you want to describe it. But it would take me having a different kind of brain, from the brain I do have.

I think Intrusive Thoughts are one of those things that if you do not get them, it is impossible to describe what they are like - but if you do get them, the moment I say "thoughtworm", people who get them instantly grok what I mean.

A couple of people on this thread, I've said what I've said, and they've been like "oh yeah!" so I think they grok what I am talking about.

If you have never experienced OCD, then I think it just sounds like complete freaking insanity, if I talk about "a thought that isn't actually a thought, but is like a cancer or a computer virus that quickly eats up every available part of your conscious mind". But that is what it is. I know of no other way to get that idea across.

Would you say that it's roughly thoughts (often bad thoughts) that crowd out everything else and can't be quieted down?

Branwell, I'm not suggesting anyone here use anything if they don't want to. And my initial aside where I mentioned meditation wasn't directed at you. Someone else mentioned anxiety or something. I didn't go into detail because it was just that, an aside. And precisely because I didn't intend it come across as prescriptive or condescending, yet that seems or have been how it was taken. I wanted just there to clarify a little what I meant, not to be bang or be defensive but because I'd like there to be a smidge less miscommunication.

I'm aware there is a gulf in communication and understanding but I don't think there is such a big difference in experience.

Yeah, they're not always bad thoughts - often I get 'the incredible hottness of current lust object' as an intrusive thought, which is not an unpleasant thought at all! It's usually more like, 'stuff you care about, a lot'.

Like, if there are any sci-fi fans on the thread, there's a hilarious example in Douglas Adams' Hitchhikers Guide, when Arthur tells the Ship Computer about Proper English Tea, and the Ship Computer throws all of its circuits into making *the* perfect cup of tea. And Zaphod is like "hey, computer, Vogons are attacking, can you please get us out of here?" and the ship computer is like "nope, sorry, all circuits are currently occupied with this tea problem, and it's a doozy!" "Tea" is the intrusive thought, where the computer should be focusing on navigation and life support and hey, getting the ship away from the bad guys, but the only thing the computer can think about is "tea".

Except, the last time I used cannabis, the intrusive thought was actually literally "The pink of the carpet is too bright" and I was also experiencing a significant amount of synaesthsia, so that I was experiencing the PINK! of the carpet as an incredibly loud sound that made it impossible to hear or contribute to any conversation in the room, or even hear the music that was playing, over the incredibly distressing loud PINK-ness of the carpet, which never previously bothered me, since I had been in that room 100 times before.

(And that was what had started to happen, every time I used cannabis, it wasn't the exception, experiences like that had just become 'what happens when I smoke' - I have no psychological issues or baggage surrounding the colour pink, or persian carpets, or anything like that to work through, and no amount of mindfulness or paying attention to the music or the trees outside would have stopped the awful pinkness of that carpet from eating up my brain, and I am aware of how incredibly petty and silly a complaint this sounds - I stopped using cannabis because the pink of a carpet was shouting at me - but it was just really unpleasant!)

(It's OK to laugh at my ridiculous 'this is why Branwell isn't a stoner' story)

But thinking about this - Noel, maybe it would help, that if you are replying to someone in specific, like if you were talking to Paul (who I think was also saying very similar things to me - but does *want* to try cannabis in different ways) - to quote Paul's post that you're replying to?

I have been trying to do that way more than usual on this thread, because it *is* such a personal issue, and it is one of those subjects where if you don't name the person you're responding to, other people *do* tend to think it's directed at them, that is completely understandable on such a personal thread (in a way it wouldn't be on a more neutral thread e.g. a political thread or a 'do you like band X' thread)

It might have been sowmthing Paul said that prompted it but it wasn't a reply to anyone inpartocular. The post started with "if you are sensitive maybe..". i.e. take it or leave it, just a suggestion. I'm mainly just surprised at how hostile people are to the idea of meditation and how 'everyone' apparently thinks it's about thoughts or guided meditation. Also I hoped it was implied that "a quiet place" indicated that I would consider this absolutely a solo activity.

You know you are doing the very things regarding my posts that you said happened to you above.

My friend, "I've tried this and it hasn't worked for me" is not hostility, and it's a little odd that you read it that way.

I don't think "please be more specific about what you are responding to" is an unreasonable request in a highly personal thread.

Thanks.

My outlook on meditation is that there isn't a right or wrong way to approach it, just what suits the individual, but obviously not for everyone.

Ecstasy (and acid) definitely helped unlock dance music for me, especially understanding the physicality of all the very tactile sounds that pop up, that they are there for a reason. Also being able to get lost in long form music and ride the waves of different moods that may develop across the space of an entire night. I don't really need the drugs to enjoy this stuff, but they helped make things click for me at first.

Brabwell, I'm not talking about *you* saying you're not interested in "meditation", even though we were evidently talking about very different things. I get that. I got that many posts ago. And u was talking about hostility to an idea, not a poster. I mean the response generally. Look how it 'derailed' the thread. Like I was telling people to join a fucking monastery or something. It's a little surprising to me. I'm sure people will tell me why it came across as awfully condescending and how they actually lived in an ashram for 20 years thanks.

* I wasn't talking about hostility to a poster.

Noel, babe, you and I do not conceive the world in the same way - and it looks like we use language in quite different ways. Which is fine and beautiful and good, my friend!

I don't think "please be more specific about what you are responding to" is an unreasonable request in a highly personal thread.

I mean, the first part there is very general. In terms of your own suggestion, what does that refer to, specifically? As a broad statement it could be a rather condescending and indeed alienating thing to say to someone who is trying to communicate with you. Is it cos I mentioned "chi"? You know, the terms or apparently implied metaphysics don't matter. Expeeiences are real. I don't necessarily "conceive" of the world at all, if I'm communicating I'm trying to translate.

When you first replied to me with -

Haha, see meditation is another of those ~neurotypical people things~ I have never managed to make work with my brain. Some people are just wired differently, it's OK.

That's supposed to be self-deprecating or something but firstly it reads like instruction. "See," "it's OK". And it's literally not true, which at the very least means you missed where I was coming from and 'who' I am. Something I wanted to clarify. That has nothing to do with mj or meditation per se and everything to do with communication.

I am interested in talking about ND experience and appreciate the clarity you can bring to talking about it but the "only autist in the village" act is quite alienating.

Not that you have any obligation to be not-alienating. I have been trying to communicate here though and as someone who should perhaps know better I think you could do better than make out that the failure is entirely mine.

My own experience with intrusive thoughts are thoughts that 1) are bad, 2) are demonstrably false, and 3) dominate all other stimuli. One moment I am happily listening to Selected Ambient Works and suddenly a voice in my brain says "Paul, you don't really love your dad / mom / brother / best friend. And I will prove this now by showing you several ways in which this person is ugly or immoral." When I am not high I recognize the gremlin for what it is, but when I'm baked, these thoughts can become pretty persuasive despite the fact that I do in fact unreservedly love my dad, mom, brothers and best friends. This is the main reason I avoid smoking weed.

Noel, have you ever had the experience, of talking to a neurotypical person, and explained a difficulty that you face, and they reply "Hey have you tried... just NOT being autistic/ADD/anxiety?" (I am not sure what specific type of neuro-non-typicality you experience.) I get that all the time, and I find it an intensely frustrating experience. Have you had experiences like that?

Can you try to relate that experience, to this experience: you walk into a thread, and say "Hey, if you have problems with this thing, have you tried meditation?"

"Meditation" is one of those things that gets reccommended to everyone, for everything - but very specifically, it often gets reccommended to people with various mental health issues. (Along with, "have you tried jogging" and "have you tried going for a nature walk" and "have you tried just... cheering up and going to the pub once in a while?") It's something that many of us (and maybe I'm extrapolating too much here, but based on other people's reactions on this thread, I don't think I am) have had reccommended to us, many time, by people who thought they were trying to be helpful, but did not realise that in repeatedly reccommending something that *just did not work*, they were reinforcing really negative, unhelpful views of mental illness as mentally ill people somehow 'just not trying hard enough'.

I'm not saying that meditation doesn't work wonders for some people - obviously including yourself! (As jogging and nature walks and... going to the pub can and do help other people.) The hostility is not towards "meditation" - the hostility is towards a) the idea that we haven't already tried it b) the dismissal of our experiences when we say "well, I tried it and it didn't work" and c) this idea, which often comes along with the experiences described in paragraph C, that our poor mental health is due to us 'just not trying hard enough'.

Mental health is a personal and emotive topic. People have personal and emotive reactions to discussions of it.

I have tried, really hard, on this thread, to be clear when I'm talking from a "this is a weird thing I experience, maybe some other people do, but I'm not being prescriptive because autists are all different" - and when I'm speaking from a "this is a super-common thing that many, many autists and non-neurotypical people around the world experience."

You have taken one flat, poorly-expressed, badly-worded attempt at diverting a conversation I didn't want to have - (I didn't want to have to explain for the 500th time why meditation doesn't work for me!??!? Yet you are demanding that we have this conversation again, because you didn't understand my joke as being a... poorly expressed joke of which I was supposed to be the butt?) - as evidence of my entire attitude towards mental health, towards your non-neurotypical status, of my entire quote-unquote "only autist in the village act" (literally: WHAT A BIZARRE THING TO SAY AND PROJECT ONTO ME. WOW.)

If you want to use a joke I have already apologised for twice, in this way to project such bizarre stuff onto me, I'm going to start suggesting that maybe there *is* some hostility here, but it isn't coming from any of the three or four people who have very patiently explained "meditation doesn't work for me" - "or me" - "or me."

This is exactly what I mean by "we see the world in very different ways". I am not enjoying this, and I think I'm going to stop now.

suddenly a voice in my brain says "Paul, you don't really love your dad / mom / brother / best friend. And I will prove this now by showing you several ways in which this person is ugly or immoral." When I am not high I recognize the gremlin for what it is, but when I'm baked, these thoughts can become pretty persuasive despite the fact that I do in fact unreservedly love my dad, mom, brothers and best friends. This is the main reason I avoid smoking weed.

― Paul Ponzi, Friday, 9 October 2020 14:30

Yeah, that definitely sounds like Intrusive Thoughts, but if you are able, when not-baked, to recognise "oh, hey, this is a gremlin" and *stop* the thought from taking over, I would guess that it's probably not Pure-OCD - or at least, if it is, you manage it really well. That's executive function, the ability to turn off or shut down gremlins. Do you have the "can't stop the gremlin" experiences while using other chemicals - does it happen e.g. if you drink? If it does, it's probably a "cognitive control impaired by substances" issue rather than your executive function being totally borked. (For me, my executive function is pretty borked regardless of substances, it just got way worse when substances were involved.)

Do you have the "can't stop the gremlin" experiences while using other chemicals - does it happen e.g. if you drink?

Oddly, not at all. I'm no teetotaler - I drink fairly often and generally have a good relationship with alcohol. Ditto pills and other certain powdery drugs I took when I was younger and less concerned about dying on a toilet bowl. I only smoked hash once, but I don't even remember that bringing this on. It's just weed taken in any form, but the effect is almost instantaneous.

IANAD but yeah, that does sound suspiciously drug-specific, brains are weird! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is exactly what I mean by "we see the world in very different ways".

A conclusion which may be correct but which in this instance seems, as far as I'm concerned based on a misconstruel of my intent and meaning. And premature as a dialogue stopper IMO.

It was a brief post about a possible approach to dealing with stuff like a little anxiety which may be present when doing something someone was doing anyway that has been found valuable in the experience of someone who is not me. There was no denial of anyone's experience and it was not a prescription to fix mh issues, do drugs or get a difference type of brain! (Although..)

It was something shared in a spirit of discussion, not something I am or ever have been remotely invested in persuading anyone to do. That's the weird and ironic part. You know how the exchange of information without any agenda beyond the sharing is often misconstrued as argument?

Someone who is not me could have put in terms only of their own experience but for the same reason this sentence is stupid they chose not to.

have you ever had the experience, of talking to a neurotypical person, and explained a difficulty that you face, and they reply "Hey have you tried... just NOT being autistic/ADD/anxiety?"

I guess this is mostly rhetorical but... I don't need to have been regularly on the receiving end to understand how this sort of thing would be unhelpful and maddening.

But I'm not regularly on the receiving end of stuff like this probably because I don't talk about ND experience or "difficulties" much. Hardly at all until recently and certainly not with most people IRL, medical professionals aside. I've had hardly any undeetanding of it myself for most of my life.

Yeah I'm sure there have been occasions. I don't dwell on them or blame people if I can help it.

lol that reminds me of when I was hangin' out online as a teenager and there were these forums where people would write about their depression and people would respond "that's too bad!! you seem like such a great person! have you ever tried just being happy instead??"

the intrusive thoughts thing! Yeah, Branwell, that sounds a lot like what I deal with, and why meditation doesn't work for me. ... And, apologies, because I spent most of my waking hours yesterday looking at architectural plans, I am going to use building/construction metaphors here.

So the intrusive thoughts in my brain are like faulty wiring in a weird old building mostly constructed and subdivided without permits and not up to code. Because this wiring is all over the place in this building, if you were to try and remove it, you would end up demolishing a substantial part of the building, at prohibitive costs, and end up displacing a couple dozen low-income tenants in the middle of a pandemic. You can't remove all the faulty wiring. In many places, you just have to put in new wiring and bypass the bad wiring, leaving these corroded cables there, but just not drawing current. The common meditation model of "let all the thoughts go" -- to me -- is like mandating the removal of all the bad wiring, maybe you can get some of the bad wiring out fairly well, but you can't get it all out, and you will just have potentially dangerous "zapping sounds" and ground faults in places that are harder to get to. Whereas what works for me: certain music, other productive tasks, provoking new thoughts -- is what is functional -- it is putting in new wiring, and reducing/eliminating current going through the bad wiring.

(hopefully calzino will come along and correct errors in my electrical terminology and/or tell another awesome story about electrician lyfe)

As someone currently dealing with some pretty horrendous OCD-related stuff with one of my kids, this thread is unexpectedly providing me with just the 'frontline' advice I needed. Remarkably clear and poetic renderings of the experience of the disorder (I hate that word), giving me the insight I've not really had from clinical literature. I wish I could buy you a beer/bong hit/week in an ashram (just kidding about the last one).

hahaha <3

idk maybe it's partly me, and that I like to solve problems and puzzles and organize things, but, outside of sleep, the only thing that will get me out of intrusive thought paralysis is outside stimulus -- and in general, it's about creating new habits and thought processes to divert the power of the dysfunctional ones, e.g. I hate myself and want to die.

also, I realize, that this approach to dealing with intrusive thoughts probably is why my instinct when I see threads going into what I feel are "bad places" is to change the subject or be funny or cute or distracting

Wow, I didn't mean to turn this into 'OCD, the thread' but I guess, here we are - if it's helpful to people, or helps people to understand, that's great? (Like, I've learned quite a bit from this thread myself!)

The stuff that helps me, is like ctrl-alt-delete for the brain?

I talked to a neuro scientist person (a friend, not a therapist or anything) about what causes OCD - like, her understanding of it was something like 'the brain wants to complete a loop and mark it as done, but somehow can't, so the loop just keeps going, looping over and over and over again'.

So, stuff that helps me, is anything that pushes the reset button on that loop. (This is stuff I've found helpful - your mileage may vary! Brains are different!) Like, often, literally getting up and leaving the house, or even just walking into a different room, different setting can help hit the reset button? (Liminal experiences, going through doorways is actually a powerful psychological mechanism - which is why, sometime when you get up and walk into another room to do something - you forget what you walked in there to do, the minute you walked through the door?) As an autist, I find it very hard to shift gears to start with - so getting up and walking out of the house, out of the office, going somewhere else, looking at a different view can just provide the gear-shift. When I'm in the office, my boss, who sits next to me, will sometimes tell me "get up and go for a walk around the block, dammit" if my OCD starts interfering with his ability to concentrate. But lockdown has been *killing* me on this front - when you lose "out", that removes a powerful reset button.

Distraction totally works for me, I can bannish thoughtworms with music - or with really engaging reading material - or sometimes just looking at pictures of pleasant things that provide a jolt of good brain chemistry. When I'm like "show me a picture of a sea arch / special interest / hott person" - that's what I'm after, the distraction jolt which is like ctrl-alt-delete to get me out of a loop.

When a thoughtworm is really settled in, when it's a couple of days (even weeks - really sticky thoughtworms can *stick*, man! - when I was younger and didn't have so many therapeutic tools, they could run for months!) that's when I have to call in reinforcements, and kind of check in with people I trust, and "Am I going crazy, or ..." - again, my boss bears the brunt of this when we're in the office, he is a literal saint - but weirdly, and I know this makes no sense to other people, but I often use the 'no boys' thread for this, to check in with other people if I'm being absolutely tortured by a thoughtworm that won't leave me alone (thoughtworms like to cannibalise stuff you really care about!) - when I'm asking "Is this a thing, or am just nuts?" what I'm really asking is, "I'm being tormented by an intrusive thought about this subject, can someone else look at this idea, tell me if it's good, bad, crazy, sensible" and the act of someone else going "yeah, that's a thing" or "nah, that sounds a bit off" can tick the thought as complete and stop the loop from looping.

It's so uncomfortable to talk about this, because when I explain what's going on, it genuinely sounds completely nuts, it sounds seriously insane. (And especially when I'm doing a check-in, people misread what my motives are, why am I asking these stupid questions? Am I doing it for attention? No, I'm doing it to save my literal sanity.) I think it's hard for people to understand just how invasive and disruptive, invasive thoughts can be if they've never experienced them. Aren't brains weird!

Puzzles are also really good, because any puzzle that has a *solution* can tick the box completed and the brain feels that a loop has been completed.

(But that feeling is also addictive - my stupid solitaire app automatically redeals after completing a set, which is... argh, no, now I have new loop to complete, oh noes.)

'the brain wants to complete a loop and mark it as done, but somehow can't, so the loop just keeps going, looping over and over and over again'.

Whoa!!! yes! ... also I went through a compulsive solitaire phase a few years ago. ... Another insane but satisfying thing I did once, was collect all the writing implements in my apartment and test each pen to see if it worked, and threw away the bad pens. I kept the piece of paper I used to test the pens as a conceptual artwork, because, why not, I've seen far less attractive and less rigorous works on paper presented as art.

oh ... actually ... speaking of solitaire and conceptual art ... I have a fb friend who is a conceptual artist in LA and I mentioned how much solitaire I played. And that in the Windows 7 solitaire program there are actually glitches, where it will not pop up the message that there are no more moves left in the game in some cases where there actually aren't any moves left in the game, and in some instances where you can play the 3 of diamonds as opposed to the 3 of hearts, but nothing else. Anyway my friend suggested I should document this and make an art project out of "Glitches found in Windows 7 Solitaire"

okay, as this is ILM, maybe y'all will accept this as an apology (this is one of said friend's projects)

https://albumsbyconceptualartists.tumblr.com/

Actual LOL:

https://albumsbyconceptualartists.tumblr.com/post/115000437562/beuys-ii-men-how-to-explain-pictures-to-a-dead

(I have heard the Jacque Lacan joke many times before, I have definitely made it myself in various situations)

And yeah, I honestly think there is some kind of connection between conceptual artists (that said, are there any artists who aren't conceptual artists?) and some form of obsessive or compulsive behaviour, because many, many artists have talked about art as a kind of compulsive urge, as much as a rational decision-making process. And that 'look, now this is a piece of art' both ticks the brain-box that marks the loop as 'done' and also provides a retroactive raison d'etre for the whole experience. (I wasn't losing my mind, I was creating this piece of art; look there is now a beautiful piece of art that didn't exist in the world before, the end result - the artwork - validates and slightly justifies the unpleasant experience of feeling like I was losing my mind.)

good point!

To a narrower point, re bad effects of weed. I enjoyed for most of the 70s, then it started adding to my already increasing insecurities, so I quit, felt better, came back to it in the 80s, felt much worse, then read a big feature about this kind of experience in Rolling Stone: the author finally mentioned it to a couple of friends, who were like, "You too?!". so yadda yadda growers and dealers were enhancing it, going for quality over quantity, because War On Drugs. I've smoked it a few times since, with better results, but it's always much stronger, a bit edgier, than in thee old days.
Totally concur re xpost nevrer done heroin but can relate to it in song. In my case it's always been. "I have made a very big decision. To nullify my life," and then going off--not rushing on that particular run, but something more artsy, also involving money and time-time.

Not nec. going so far as to overall nullify, but plus or minus out, cancel out some good or bad, don't want to bother with stuff.

I mean I had this cash register once, where if you entered too big an amount, that was the plus, so you would have to re-enter it in red ink, with a minus sign in front.

Too big, too good.

For myself, music is the drug. I been on everything and listened to a lot on everything but the downsides of using were eating me alive so i quit it all. What remains is music. And it hits the spot a lot of the time.

Definitely had some ear-opening experiences on weed. I remember in college getting high and listening to Kate Bush's "The Ninth Wave" and I could hear everything, all kinds of layers and textures and even vocal lines I'd never noticed before. Also had sort of a jazz breakthrough watching the Vandermark Five play while I was moderately stoned and for the first time watching a jazz band I could really disaggregate all the parts and understand the time-keeping and structure under the improvisation. I realized during one solo that I knew when it was going to end, and that was kind of revelatory.

So yeah, I think it's just the ability to isolate and focus on things and follow along (while letting the focus on lots of other things subside). I'm neurotypical as far as I know, but my brain is a busy and easily distracted place, and weed definitely turns down some of that noise. (Also fwiw music is a great antidote ime to any weed-related downward spirals — if that starts up, I can just distract/divert the train of thought by putting on the right music and getting lost in it.)

I definitely don't "need" weed or alcohol to enjoy and appreciate music, I listen to music all the time regardless of any level of intoxication. But they both enhance it in certain ways.

(The key for me to both weed and alcohol is moderation. I hate being either too stoned or too drunk. My favorite is a nice combined buzz between moderate levels of both.)

Oddly relevant:

#MentalHealthAwarenessDay pic.twitter.com/YQvYTdsZue

— Zombies Transed My Neighbours (@finryan87) October 10, 2020

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