Stating the Obvious?

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just read this somewhere:

"AOL Time-Warner is one of the remaining major label record companies and owns Atlantic, Elektra/Sire, Asylum, Reprise, Warner, American, Maverick, and others. It also owns AOL, which is involved in a co-venture with Hughes Electronics Corp called DirecTV. Hughes is owned 100% by General Motors. Hughes merged with Raytheon to form Hughes subsidiary Raytheon Industries. Raytheon Industries makes missiles and bombs.

Sony Corporaton is another of the major label companies. Sony is involved in a co-venture with the US Army and University of Southern California to develop advanced training simulations for use by the Army. Sony's face in this venture is known as Future Combat Sytems.

BMG owns Arista, RCA, BMG and other record labels. The Power Corporation of Canada is a significant shareholder in BMG, and in turn has holdings in Pargesa Group and Groupe Bruxelles Lambert. These holding companies own a stake in Totalfina, which owns an interest in the venture between Hutchinson Worldwide and Barry Controls. This venture produces sundry parts used in fighter aircraft and other miltary vehicles.

Vivendi Universal is the fourth and final major label company, counting MCA, Polygram, Motown, Geffen-DGC, Interscope, and Universal among its holdings. It has an arm called Vivendi Environnement, which owns a stake in Fomento De Construcciones Y Contratas, which in turn has a stake in Espelsa. Espelsa works on mission planning systems for the P-3 Orion aircraft (Lockheed Martin), as well as systems for the Typhoon Fighter (or Eurofighter), made by British Aerospace. Espelsa also works with the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, which produces military aircarafts and bombs, as well as with Alenia who, together with Boeing, makes bombs."

― s magnet, Saturday, 23 November 2002 18:47 (twenty-three years ago)

This can only mean that EVERY POP ACT ON A MAJOR LABEL SUPPORTS WAR AND DEATH!

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:04 (twenty-three years ago)

chumbawumba to thread.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

naw, chumbawumba like war these days. they just hate all that eating meat stuff and homeless people.

― s magnet, Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:11 (twenty-three years ago)

K records makes corrugated iron bomb shelters

― s magnet, Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:13 (twenty-three years ago)

k records can't pay my rent.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:17 (twenty-three years ago)

(trust me, i've asked.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Have you at least checked out their food shelf?

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Someone should parody those idiotic "buying marijuana leads to someone's death on the drug chain" ads, replacing the demon weed with an Avril Lavigne album.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Nate are we to understand from your sarcasm that your position is: it doesn't matter a whit who funds you so long as it's not you yourself dropping the bombs/manufacturing the napalm/upholding the Raj?

you seem to be saying that to think about these matters at all is silly, hence the inference I'm making

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:53 (twenty-three years ago)

we're all doomed...the best we can do is sit back and enjoy the destruction...it's a helluva tobbogan ride

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, my first reaction was somewhat bemused, though now that I think of it the implications are pretty disturbing. I'm not surprised - considering how many companies own each other nowadays it'd be impossible not to connect most companies to military manufacturers somehow. And while it might be amusing to connect the purchase of a Ja Rule CD or a Big Mac or a bottle of Mountain Dew with the imminent "That Thar Tussle'n'Dust-Up With Them Eye-raqis", it's also depressing. (I suppose my natural reaction to potentially depressing situations is to larf.)

Solution: MP3 FILE-SHARING FOR PEACE

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:59 (twenty-three years ago)

solution = letting workers control the means of production, obv.

short of that though Nate there's been a good deal of thinking, some oversimplistic some fairly soberminded, going on about this for some years -- Burchill & Downs seemed to conclude that music=product is already a destructive equation, and prof. Barry Sanders seems to concur -- your own solution comes closest to giving an out to the consumer who might worry about such things

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:04 (twenty-three years ago)

"we're all doomed...the best we can do is sit back and enjoy the destruction...it's a helluva tobbogan ride"

tobbogan manufacturers made Iraq

― s magnet, Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:22 (twenty-three years ago)

i was pretty sure this was the reaction such left-wing bleating would produce. i mean, really who gives a fuck? let's stop brushing our teeth becuz colgate is a conglomerate of whatever who makes fax machines for whoever who produces arms for whoever. the irony is, that although sony, bmg et al may be 'playing' a 'part' in some crazy war shit, at the same time they are selling like, some beautiful life-affirming pop music, man, that like, numbs the pain of pre-apocolyptic nuclear destruction paranoia.

(seriously though, i'm writing a feature in my uni paper on this and just wanted to amass/plagiarise some thoughts, whilst finding the confidence to go all out on an opinion that i wasn't too sure many people shared or not..)

― s magnet, Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:27 (twenty-three years ago)

(i like the mp3 file sharing for peace rhetoric, can i nick it?)

― s magnet, Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:29 (twenty-three years ago)

let's stop brushing our teeth becuz colgate is a conglomerate
no, let's either buy toothpaste made by somebody without their hands in the munitions pie, or let's make our own -- neither of which are terrifically radical notions requiring massive lifestyle changes

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, go ahead.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:40 (twenty-three years ago)

(haha if it's ilm kneejerk anti-bleating you're fishing for i'm surprised you didn't reveal the "somewhere" where you found this, magnet)

― jones (actual), Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:40 (twenty-three years ago)

damned if i know how to make toothpaste

― artiste, Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:41 (twenty-three years ago)

i think these links have zero implications for the content or worth of the music being made by said corps, but i think boycotts are always totally cool

give mp3 culture a positive activist edge for a change!!!!

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 November 2002 20:48 (twenty-three years ago)

positive mp3 activist after 2 minutes grilling: "well er yes i guess i do have an IBM/Mac and supra-hi-spd conneX provided by [awful mega corp] but fuk it i want FREE TUNES IS THAT SO WRONG??"

― jones (actual), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:02 (twenty-three years ago)

("stating the obvious")

― jones (actual), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Why are you all stupid hippies?
The money you pay for a CD does not go to SUBSIDIZE bomb-and-rocket war-death-kill industries. The money you pay for a CD, if it subsidizes anything, subsidizes the giant leeching promotional machines that spend twelve hours a day pushing free records back and forth and making phone calls to 18-25 year olds.
The reason bombs are made is because bombs are a PROFITABLE VENTURE. Boycotting one branch of a company is going to have no effect on another branch's revenue or profits, because unless all of these companies are engaged in truly weird and illegal trust activities (WE MUST PUT OUT MORE BUBBLEGUM PUNK/RAP ROCK SO WE CAN KEEP SELLING JDAMS TO THE DoD AT A DISCOUNT!) they're already making money on bombs etc. and your choice of listening material is not going to make a damn bit of difference.

Voting, like in elections, not online polls, and making sure your representatives know what you want and mobilizing like-minded citizens to help prove your points, can make a damn bit of difference. I read about it somewhere.

Think before you ask these questions, Mitch.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:17 (twenty-three years ago)

w/r/t the post before Tom's: but is the conclusion "because it's difficult not to be connected to undesirable elements, it is therefore pointless to even worry about it?" seems defeatist to me

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:19 (twenty-three years ago)

wow, Tom. At least this once I am totally with yer fervor.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:28 (twenty-three years ago)

still burnt me when you knocked us for telling mean jokes, though.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:28 (twenty-three years ago)

you drunk again tom?

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:35 (twenty-three years ago)

no, regularly scheduled Saturday hangover

― Tom Millar (Millar), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:38 (twenty-three years ago)

let's either buy toothpaste made by somebody without their hands in the munitions pie

Ergo, Tom's of Maine funds the universe.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:43 (twenty-three years ago)

i don't really think you understood my boycott idea but never mind

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

this is like six degrees of kevin bacon, all of the links in the question are extemely tenuous. since when is a company responsible for its shareholders actions? i interned at raytheon, i admit it, it's all my fault.

― keith (keithmcl), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:53 (twenty-three years ago)

JOhn - no no that's not my conclusion at all. ignore those posts - i'm tired and my sarcasm machine is getting its wires crossed all over the place. The "we are all guilty so fuck it" line is totally defeatist to me too. (In fact even without the "so fuck it" it completely irks me as an entry point to this discussion, because the talk tends to get bogged down in degrees of complicity, instead of looking more closely the less obvious conflicts/connections involved, and the ways to negotiate THOSE terrains too)

(welcome back, btw)

― jones (actual), Saturday, 23 November 2002 21:55 (twenty-three years ago)

sorry, that post is barely even in english

― jones (actual), Sunday, 24 November 2002 00:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Keith's right that in the first case the link is a bit of a stretch. Tom is also right. But also, it doesn't say anywhere that these companies are selling arms to nasty dictatorships to be used in genocidal bloodbaths or something. It doesn't say that they're manufacturing vicious biological or chemical warfare tools. Am I correct in assuming that these companies are providing the US Armed Forces with standard-type arms? In that case, if you're a US citizen, do you oppose your country having armed forces? I mean, it's one thing if you oppose some of the wars your country fights. Flawed though they are, and they should be improved, there are still democratic means to express that opposition. It's another thing if you object to your country even having a military and weaponry. I mean, you did know that your country has an army and arsenal, right? And that the really big corporations who work with high-tech and communications are involved in manufacturing things for them, right? Does it surprise anyone that the dept of defence would commission the major corporations in these areas for their projects?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 24 November 2002 00:49 (twenty-three years ago)

english is the language "THEY" want you to write in

THE BOYCOTT STARTS RIGHT KWETZNIP

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 24 November 2002 00:50 (twenty-three years ago)

yarglefrapXOR!!

(transl: sundar - not to mention which companies developed recording techniques in the first place and for what purposes. ask s magnet where the list comes from, though)

― jones (actual), Sunday, 24 November 2002 01:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Sundar your point is a good one that I haven't heard before in this connection - the question is, actually, "Are you a pacifist?" If so, then buying CDs that go through the major channels of distribution runs counter to your convictions.

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Sunday, 24 November 2002 03:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Shit, now I feel less smug for having dozens of independent label CD's from labels/artists that openly support violence.

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:28 (twenty-three years ago)

jd: nothing's too good for the working class!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 25 November 2002 06:30 (twenty-three years ago)

>>The money you pay for a CD does not go to SUBSIDIZE bomb-and-rocket war-death-kill industries ... The reason bombs are made is because bombs are a PROFITABLE VENTURE ...

Tom this is absolutely FALSE.

>>(WE MUST PUT OUT MORE BUBBLEGUM PUNK/RAP ROCK SO WE CAN KEEP SELLING JDAMS TO THE DoD AT A DISCOUNT!)

Not at a discount, but at a loss. Every defense system in use represents four or five prototypes that didn't make the cut, which cost serious money to build. That's why the defense industry took such a big hit in the late 80s, that's why so many of my high school friend's parents were unemployed, that's why these companies even have stock in the defense industry.

So if you are a pacifist, and you do vote for far-left candidates who want to scrap our armies, then you CAN help demolish our native arms industry by not buying music (which, along with almost every other first world consumer product, really does underwrite death and destruction).

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 25 November 2002 09:43 (twenty-three years ago)

The revolution will not be subsidized.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 25 November 2002 11:58 (twenty-three years ago)

b-but what abt derek from hackney.

(I have not read a single word from this thread apart from ned's post)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Does it surprise anyone that the dept of defence would commission the major corporations in these areas for their projects?

This is shocking. The DoD should be sourcing their supplies from indie arms dealers, who are way cooler than the big corporates.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:21 (twenty-three years ago)

If I recall correctly, the recording industry (notice I don't say the entertainment industry) in this country makes only a couple billion in revenue a year, whereas the aerospace industry makes 100-120 billion in revenue; if they're counting on the sales of the next Britney Spears album to fund missile defense, they're in a lot of fucking trouble.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 25 November 2002 13:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't forget that revenue is your income before cost. Like I was saying above, the aerospace industry appears highly profitable but the overhead is a bitch. They manage to shave off a relatively tiny profit because their products cost millions or billions a pop (a stealth bomber sells for 2 billion). So yeah, that's what I was saying, the defense industry really is in a lot of fucking trouble, I should know because I was trying to get a job in it. Of course, if the entertainment industry decides to go elsewhere, someone else will step in to underwrite missile defense research because the government is going to spend money on it one way or another.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 25 November 2002 21:51 (twenty-three years ago)

prof. Barry Sanders

Wait, not only was former Detroit Lions RB Barry Sanders a kick-ass playah, but he waxes all academic and shit too? Damn, that's awesome.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 21:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually my father is an aerospace engineer. Which means he DESIGNS WEAPONS FOR THE US MILITARY!!!! Oh my god. Ahhh.

Actually this is a good thing, because I get free April Levine CDs and we also get bottles of Iraqi baby blood delivered to our house by CIA operatives and Colombian para-military fighters who fly in from East Timor. I use it to rinse my mouth out after brushing with COLGATE!!!! ahhhh!

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:06 (twenty-three years ago)

do not wash away the flavour of the day with the false and foreign taste of mint!!

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:10 (twenty-three years ago)

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