gygax do you like BAKER!!

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― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:19 (twenty-three years ago)

yo i liked that film noir thing but fuck a kyle baker, 'blacks are the only people who voluntarily write songs depicting their race as gangsters and pimps' do you even know how many things are wrong with that sentence!!!

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Is that supposed to be Bill Clinton in the third panel?

― Curtis Stephens, Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:34 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, yes it is.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Panel 8 is the best.

― Dan I., Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Bill Clinton wants to be black? I had no idea.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:56 (twenty-three years ago)

yes yes toni morrison blah blah blah

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 21:58 (twenty-three years ago)

yes yes but fleetwood mac blah blah blah as well

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:04 (twenty-three years ago)

that toni morrison quote is fantastically offensive, its like exactly something david duke would say only he would mean it as an insult!!

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:06 (twenty-three years ago)

do you think condi rice could get the black democrat vote if she ran for bush vp in 04

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Haha of course not! Blacks don't vote!

(nb I am KIDDING)

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:14 (twenty-three years ago)

thats true jbr and you know they wear their ability to speak eighteenth century sharecroppers dialect as a pathetic badge of honor!! the worst thing about this racist piece of shit cartoon is that it originally appeared in ESQUIRE magazine

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:16 (twenty-three years ago)

eighteenth century sharecroppers dialect

Oh yeah, cuz there's only one black dialect in the US.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:22 (twenty-three years ago)

i blame chris rock for that 'i love black people but i cant stand niggas' crap, now white people can hate nonwhites except for the ones who are exactly like them and its not racist because a black dude said it first!!

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

I have actually heard white people coming out with stuff similar to the "black man trapped in a white man's body", and also the "I don't think of you as black, you're just like the rest of us" (or words to that effect) A lecturer at the technical college I used to go to asked a delegate from Nigeria "What is it like to be black" (his reply - "very nice actually" Norman Mailer was and is full of shit. Which is the Toni Morrison quote? this "'blacks are the only people who voluntarily write songs depicting their race as gangsters and pimps'" is clearly wrong tho, i mean kyle b has obv never heard mack the knife for instance blah blah blah

― N0RM4N PH4Y, Sunday, 24 November 2002 23:36 (twenty-three years ago)

toni m said that clinton was 'our first black president'

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 23:51 (twenty-three years ago)

i think its sort of a cute thing to say and true in that he was the first prez to come from conditions similar to many black americans but its still incredibly wrongheaded!!

― s trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 24 November 2002 23:53 (twenty-three years ago)

no but this thread reminds me of why that updike vs. eminem thread might have cut so deep.

― gygax!, Monday, 25 November 2002 00:07 (twenty-three years ago)

From a Salon article:

In her now-famous defense of a scandal-plagued Bill Clinton, Nobel prizewinner Toni Morrison, went so far as to call him "our first black president. Blacker than any actual black person who could ever be elected in our children's lifetime." "Clinton," Morrison wrote in the 1998 New Yorker essay, "displays almost every trope of blackness: single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, McDonald's-and-junk-food-loving boy from Arkansas."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Obviously all blacks are poor, obese, saxophone-playing boys from broken homes in Arkansas.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:17 (twenty-three years ago)

And apparently America never had any poor white people before Bill Clinton.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:20 (twenty-three years ago)

yo gygax dont go back and kick me from back when i was down you pathetic ass fuck, im doin better than alright now

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:22 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah gygax: because real hip hop hedz never get crushes. "love" isn't in the hip-hop dictionary, only "bitch". how dare those low-class inhuman scum pretend they have emotions?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:24 (twenty-three years ago)

sterling i swear to god i have never loved you more than i do right now, ima be on aim after simpsons aight!!

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm sorry... how in the name of all that is good and holy is this cartoon racist? Racist towards who? Overly patronising white middle class pricks adopting a "slums got so much soul" attitude to black people/culture? Well, if those people are offended that can only be a good thing, surely? If these people also fall under the wheels of a juggernaut that can only be a good thing as well.

I mean... you do actually "get" this, no? It's a pisstake, and a fucking well aimed one as well. If you think that "Blacks wear their ability to speak in an eighteenth-century sharecroppers dialect as a badge of honour" or the Morrison quote is fucking stupid, then this agrees with you. I've never seen massed point-not-getting on such a grand scale...

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh and as for the first "black" president thing, Abraham Lincoln was a Melungeon.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 November 2002 00:44 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah dom 'white peoples constant assertion that anybody can be black implies that, more than color, it is class, slang, and musicality, that determine ones race' it sounds like kyle b is reading into the intent of white kids who like like rap a little too much!! oh all the white dudes who like jazz or chris tucker secretly think theyre black dudes trapped in white dudes bodies!! cant these white middle class patronizing pricks leave 'black culture' alone!! draw thicker lines!! nitsuh put down that indiepop seven inch you black middle class patronizing prick!! why do people always want to be SOMETHING THEYRE NOT

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 25 November 2002 02:11 (twenty-three years ago)

If anyone wants a serious critique of this stuff (which I somehow doubt) an issue of Black Scholar a few years back did a fantastic set of articles on "The Black Intellegensia" which dealt with the whole patterson/kennedy/gates phenom at Harvard -- passing conservatism off under a "social consciousness" buck. Patterson is the most cogent and therefore the worst I think, while Kennedy is a dope and Gates is slippery as hell. But they all blame the black population for its own conditions and buy the whole "lacks social capital" bullshitbullshit and all end up damn conservative on affirmative action, etc.

This is just the pop-cult trickle-down.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 25 November 2002 08:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Ethan do you like Al Jolson?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 November 2002 11:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yes dom good point because 1) modern white people 'acting black' and 2) modern black people 'acting black' is just MINSTRELRY for white audiences like back in the day

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:05 (twenty-three years ago)

s trife, have you ever heard of Seth Sanders?

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 18:07 (twenty-three years ago)

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Good thing, you'd probably hate his writing (esp. on the whole minstrelsy subj.).

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 18:34 (twenty-three years ago)

The cartoon is sort of passingly hypocritical, Dom, and thus falls into what it itself is claiming constitutes "racism."

Its first valid point is that it's not a good thing to construe "blackness" or "whiteness" as behavioral traits beyond just plain skin color and heritage. Its second valid point is that black people do this as much as white people do, usually (some might say) to their own detriment.

Its big problem, then, is that it (a) claims white people who adopt "black" cultural tropes are mainly "trying to be black," and (b) claims black people who reinforce certain "black" cultural tropes (in this case rappers) are speaking about the race as a whole rather than just themselves or their environments. If he really believes his valid points, above, then neither of these should really be considered the overall case -- sure, there are particular instances in which white people will verbally claim "blackness" (which he points out) or in which black people will verbally claim their behaviors as "blackness" (I think he's closer with this, though I don't think rap music is the best approach), but he delineates it so strictly that he ends up doing exactly what he criticizes.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:38 (twenty-three years ago)

In other words, if every black person who writes a song is necessarily "depicting [his] race," then his whole argument collapses into a shambles.

I mean, it's fine to be frustrated by people --- both black and white --- pinning the idea of "blackness" on behaviors and cultural traits you don't think are all that great. But you can't legitimately say to white people "you racists, being black is not necessarily about these things" and then turn around to your fellow black people and say "you idiots, why are you making being black necessarily about these things?"

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't believe I've managed to kill an ILM thread about race issues and hip-hop! Has we all finally said everything we have to say on this issue?

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 20:03 (twenty-three years ago)

i like anita baker.

― gygax!, Monday, 25 November 2002 20:29 (twenty-three years ago)

But do you like "BAKER STREET?" Huh? Do ya?

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 20:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Racial issues aside, anyone who can't understand the desire to be something one is not isn't fully human (in my opinion). We can't all be everything, and this urge is the essence of wishful thinking. I'm happy being what I am, but I also want to be everything I'm not.

― matt riedl (veal), Monday, 25 November 2002 21:17 (twenty-three years ago)

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