Some classic moments from Sunday's <i>NY Times</i> article on Avril Lavigne...

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for your edification:

...When Antonio (LA) Reid, Arista's chief executive, listened to one of her completed tracks, "Anything but Ordinary," he thought it was the perfect title for the album. But Ms. Lavigne, then 16, balked, setting off another round of conversations between her managers and her label.

"So I called LA Reid so we could talk directly," Ms. Lavigne said. "And I was like: `Dude, I don't want to name it that. Can I just name it Let Go? He was like: `Yeah. O.K.' And then I was like, `O.K.' And it was Let Go from then on."

After that, Ms. Lavigne says, she was given the freedom to trust her own punk-rock instincts on what to wear (tank tops with ties, initially), how her album should be produced (more rock, not pop) and whether skateboarding was cool or not (it was).

Growing up in Napanee, Ontario, a town of 5,000 northeast of Toronto, Avril Lavigne (pronounced AH-vrill La-VEEN) began her career by performing Shania Twain songs at county fairs and talent contests. Her father worked for the phone company. Her mother, a homemaker, hoped Ms. Lavigne could become the next Shania Twain or Faith Hill.

"She's from a new-country background," said Cliff Fabri, who signed on as Ms. Lavigne's manager after hearing her sing at a Napanee bookstore in November 1999. Mr. Fabri decided to repackage her into something he felt the industry was looking for at the time.

"I was thinking of her as another Sheryl Crow," Mr. Fabri said. "They both had the same small-town roots. Then I was thinking Fiona Apple, because of her independence. She definitely had attitude. So my line was Sheryl Crow meets Fiona Apple."

Mr. Fabri contends that though Ms. Lavigne now seems confident and self-assured, she wasn't always that way. "When we started, Avril's idea of punk was Blink-182," Mr. Fabri said, referring to the California rock group. "She didn't know who the Sex Pistols were. My God, when I brought her to New York, she didn't even know who George Washington was. So we worked on everything."

Ms. Lavigne dismissed Mr. Fabri in July 2001 and moved to Nettwerk Management. Mr. Fabri disputes her image in the press as an authentic rocker and challenges the claim that she is entirely self-made. "If you can give me a pretty face and a voice, I can make it happen," Mr. Fabri said, asserting his contribution to her development as an artist. Though Mr. Fabri worked with Ms. Lavigne on her first single, "Complicated," he had no role in the making of the rest of her album.

Mr. Fabri concedes, however, that by the time Ms. Lavigne signed with Arista, she had settled on a direction and a look without his help. She went for punk rock meets grunge skater.

"Avril was an intriguing sort of girl," said Lauren Christy, part of the writing-producing trio known as the Matrix that has worked with Christina Aguilera, Ricky Martin, Backstreet Boys and Liz Phair as well as Ms. Lavigne on "Let Go."

"She had all these melted toothbrushes on her wrists," Ms. Christy said. "She wasn't wearing any make-up. She didn't care about being sexy. She certainly wasn't a pop princess."

The production on that record was too pop and too many programmed drums, and I didn't like it," Ms. Lavigne said of the initial work on "Let Go." "I freaked out. Everyone looked at me like I was crazy. So I flew my little self up to L.A. and sat down with my producers and basically said, `We have to change the production.' It wasn't as easy as that sounded, but it was a really difficult situation for me." She added, "I just wanted it to be more edgier and more rapper and more rock."

Ms. Christy said: "Not a lot of 16-year-olds would have the chutzpah to say, `That's not right for me.' She had an uncanny knack in being able to image herself. Almost like Madonna."

"It seems of the other artists, there is more marketing — Avril is all about talent," said the 16-year-old Denise Desola of Long Island. She was outside Irving Plaza last summer waiting to hear Ms. Lavigne perform.

Katie Peer, 15, from Illinois, said of Ms. Lavigne: "She's awesome — you know, something new. I mean she actually plays the guitar. She's not fake."

But already the trappings of stardom have begun to creep into the punk persona that Ms. Lavigne is known for through her videos and stage performances.

"I do have girlie moments, you know," Ms. Lavigne said, admitting to owning a Louis Vuitton bag.

"I wanted one because I thought they were really cool," she added. "And it's real, not one of the fake ones off the street."

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

i assume the thread title's not ironic

also, what jel said

― zebedee, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:03 (twenty-three years ago)

9/11 killed irony (and almost 3,000 people).

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah she's not fake alright....she had no idea what punk was.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

so how is this different than the amanda latona article from a few months back?

― maura (maura), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know who George Washington is. She's a girl of the people, see.

― Graham (graham), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:12 (twenty-three years ago)

The only time she touched a guitar in London was to wave one around at the encore. She is quite clearly schlock.

― Roger Fascist (Roger Fascist), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Do Canadian schoolchildren learn about American pioneers? That might be her excuse. It's not as if we're taught who founded the Mounties...

― mike a (mike a), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:21 (twenty-three years ago)

WHY DOES IT MATTER?

(ok nobody said it did)

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:24 (twenty-three years ago)

using "image" as a verb - dud.

― g.cannon (gcannon), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:24 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't get what's wrong with this article.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:34 (twenty-three years ago)

it doesn't say where buffy fits into her schematic

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:40 (twenty-three years ago)

WHY DOES IT MATTER?

Like you say, who said it mattered? But I thought it was a nice little peek behind the scenes -- nothing revealing, but a useful reminder that pop doesn't just fall out of the sky! And if she's really as more take charge these days as the article says she is, then good for her. :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I just thought it was hilarious. I mean, "Sheryl Crow meets Fiona Apple," that's priceless!

And the whole thing about the Louis Vuitton bag!

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:48 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know. I'm torn between finding these articles very interesting and finding them a bit old - we only ever hear about the marketing plans etc. for stars like Britney, Avril, that wannabe Maura mentioned. What would be just as interesting - more, actually: pieces on the marketing and promotional strategies of much 'cooler' musicians. How is the Bob Dylan brand protected and promoted by Colombia? What exactly did the PR people do to get The Streets so hip? How the fuck do you get noticed if you've got good product and no money? I am 100% keen on biz demystifying but please, less articles about people who pretty much everyone could have guessed the demystification-details of anyway!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:52 (twenty-three years ago)

I can only imagine this conversation:

Columbia A&R Guy: "Hey Bob, grow a creepy moustache, that'll get people talking about what an 'eccentric genius' you are again."

Bob Dylan: "zzzzzz."

What exactly did the PR people do to get The Streets so hip?

Why, they got people to talk about it on ILM, of course!

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:54 (twenty-three years ago)

What's wrong with the bag? I found it more sad that a girl has to admit to having "girlie moments", as if that's some huge blow to being a rocker or a punker or whatever she's going as these days.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:57 (twenty-three years ago)

tom r u calling maura a "wannabe"?

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:57 (twenty-three years ago)

How the fuck do you get noticed if you've got good product and no money?

I think you just identified twenty-five years' mindset of indie (given that the 'good' product is felt as good by those creating it rather than everyone else per se).

people who pretty much everyone could have guessed the demystification-details of anyway!

I dunno. Hadn't heard about the Shania-worshipping mom before! But this is obviously a difference in detail.

Is the question less one of cool and more one of a female/male divide, Tom? I'm not saying that's intentional on your part, but I note your construction is between female 'pop' and male 'not as pop,' if you like. Are you thinking that you're tired of articles that look behind the scenes at female performers who by and large are seen as puppets already rather than yer XY chromosome types who aren't? (Boy bands being the perversely interesting exception...).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:58 (twenty-three years ago)

Nothing's wrong with the bag at all, I just think her take on what's "real" versus what's "fake" is hilarious given the fact that she's more fake than knock-off Rolexes.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually I hadn't thought of it like that Ned but yeah, bang OTM - I haven't seen any "exposes" of male artists with quite the same 'are they FOR REAL?' tone. Where are the similarly-probing Timberlake articles? Joan Jett's mate to thread!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:02 (twenty-three years ago)

haha if only she had mentioned her CD-database!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:02 (twenty-three years ago)

(One of the few bits of hate mail FT ever got was when it 'researched' (i.e. 'googled') Westlife's background to find out about the ugly mate who got kicked out of the band.)

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:03 (twenty-three years ago)

How is the Bob Dylan brand protected and promoted by Colombia?

Hah! I don't know, Tom, but if you find a connection between the two, let me know. Presumably, if it's a negative article, it might involve trade in hard drugs, and/or coffee.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Do Canadian schoolchildren learn about American pioneers?

No, we learn about Canadian pioneers. But you could ask her who the first Canadian Prime Minister was and I get the sneaking feeling that she wouldnt have a clue.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:05 (twenty-three years ago)

grrr Joan Jett's so-called "mate" hmph

― JJOG (mark s), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:05 (twenty-three years ago)

haha if only she had mentioned her CD-database!!

"I do have hip-hop moments, you know," Mr. Stencil said, admitting to owning an Ol' Dirty Bastard CD.

"I wanted one because I thought he was really cool," he added. "And it's real, not one of the fake ones off the street."

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom there was a huge article about Timberlake and "authenticity" and "blue-eyed soul" in the NY Times a few weeks ago, I'll dig it up. It wasn't very good though.

hstencil, I bet Mick Jagger has like, 3000 "real" Louis Vuitton bags in his closet and you don't see anyone mocking him for it

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:08 (twenty-three years ago)

that's bcz they're really made out of louis vuitton

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I haven't gotten around to mock Mick Jagger yet. There was an article in the NY Times Sunday Magazine (if I recall) a few weeks ago on how he chooses his tour wardrobe, which made me laugh as well.

Then again, Jagger doesn't have justify his love of fashion, as he's never claimed to be "punk!" (or "pop!" or "in your face!"). I don't think that's a double standard at all. Nobody marketed the Rolling Stones as anti-fashion, certainly not themselves.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:11 (twenty-three years ago)

But Avril isn't marketing herself/being marketed as anti-fashion at all - she's being marketed as 'actually cool' as opposed to 'uncool'.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Try reading these parts again:

'After that, Ms. Lavigne says, she was given the freedom to trust her own punk-rock instincts on what to wear (tank tops with ties, initially), how her album should be produced (more rock, not pop) and whether skateboarding was cool or not (it was).'

'"It seems of the other artists, there is more marketing — Avril is all about talent," said the 16-year-old Denise Desola of Long Island. She was outside Irving Plaza last summer waiting to hear Ms. Lavigne perform.

Katie Peer, 15, from Illinois, said of Ms. Lavigne: "She's awesome — you know, something new. I mean she actually plays the guitar. She's not fake."

But already the trappings of stardom have begun to creep into the punk persona that Ms. Lavigne is known for through her videos and stage performances.

"I do have girlie moments, you know," Ms. Lavigne said, admitting to owning a Louis Vuitton bag.

"I wanted one because I thought they were really cool," she added. "And it's real, not one of the fake ones off the street."'

― hstencil, not civil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:17 (twenty-three years ago)

So i think this only speaks to the author of the article, not the hype machine around avril.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah those were the bits I meant! Aside from one 16 year old who thinks Avril is less marketed, there's nothing in there which says "anti-fashion" to me. Unless you consider "punk-rock instincts" to be inherently anti-fashion, or 'realness' to be inherently anti-fashion either. Avril's marketed as fashionable punk and real fashion!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:22 (twenty-three years ago)

I think "it" "speaks" to "both."

Okay, I'll stop with the quotation marks.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:24 (twenty-three years ago)

i.e. fashion and marketing aren't the same things. (If they were marketers would be a lot better paid).

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:25 (twenty-three years ago)

"Avril is all about talent" = substance over style.

Fashion = style over substance.

The prosecution rests.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I quote myself: Aside from one 16 year old...

Style over substance doesn't mean there's no substance, or vice versa.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom, you're so complicated.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:30 (twenty-three years ago)

wait a second..who the fuck is George Washington?

― Chris V. (Chris V), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:48 (twenty-three years ago)

George Washington: punk or notpunk?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:53 (twenty-three years ago)

George Washington = proto-punk.

Chopping down the cherry tree = punk as hell.
Not lying about it = not punk.
Kicking the Brits' collective asses = punk as hell.
Being president = not punk.
Being a gentleman farmer, organic-style = punk as hell.
Owning slaves = not punk.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Stencil, isn't is possible to have a "talent" for "fashion?" (And if not, where did the other half of Madonna's money come from?)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah! Stephen Sprouse (who I think designs those Vuitton bags) does!

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The big irony is that GW never chopped down any cherry tree. The story itself is a lie.
And that's the Avril Lavigne lie as well. She's being marketed as the "anti-Britney" which is ridiculous because if she was truly anti-Britney, or "genuine" (an overrated term and idea) she wouldn't be being marketed in the first place.
I mean, would you rather have Jefferson Starship ("genuine") or the Monkees ("micromanaged")? The Monkees have better songs dude.
Minor Threat, Jimi Hendrix and the Sex Pistols all covered the Monkees, but who, Dave Matthews maybe, covers Jefferson Starship?

― E-to-the-Izzo, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:21 (twenty-three years ago)

historical fact = not punk
historical fiction = punk
Jefferson Starship = not punk
Starship = really not punk

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:24 (twenty-three years ago)

pink = punk
(sigh)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:29 (twenty-three years ago)

~~"I just wanted it to be more edgier and more rapper and more rock."~~

So am I the only one laughing my ass off at this sentence? She wants it to be "more rapper"!??!? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...okay, yeah, there's something wrong with me, but it's funny!

― nickalicious, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Avril rules.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Starship rule.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 20:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Skipping 68 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I quite like Blink 182.

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 11:58 (twenty-three years ago)

And come to think of it, so do I. 'Stay Together For The Kids' (or whatever it was called) was grebt.

― RickyT (RickyT), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 12:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I stand corrected (you crazed mentalists)

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 12:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I was sticking up for Blink-182 a long time ago!

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:24 (twenty-three years ago)

"And I was like: `Dude, I don't want to name it that. Can I just name it Let Go? He was like: `Yeah. O.K.' And then I was like, `O.K.' And it was Let Go from then on."

Let's hope Osama gets hold of a really big bomb and destroys the planet.

― Callum (Callum), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:29 (twenty-three years ago)

I was sticking up for Blink-182 a long time ago!

And it's gotten you nothing but frustration and prickly rash. Maybe.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:32 (twenty-three years ago)

It seems kind of ridiculous to get all huffy because a 16 year old girl doesn't know who Eater is, or whatever. I rather enjoy "Complicated", although the rest of her stuff does nothing for me. If people came to me for intelligent soundbites when I was her age, I'm sure I'd come off sounding stupid, too.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:35 (twenty-three years ago)

What the hell, Callum, the world should end because an artist suggested the title of her own record?

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:37 (twenty-three years ago)

No dumb-nut, because people like Avril Lavigne are popular and successful with the population. We should all be destroyed.

― Callum (Callum), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:48 (twenty-three years ago)

thank you Ronan and Callum I was beginning to get really really depressed

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:50 (twenty-three years ago)

So you just quoted that bit from the article to __________.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:54 (twenty-three years ago)

incidentally & for the record I was not thanking Callum for calling nabisco an ugly name, as I heart nabisco lots

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Demonstrate why she should be destroyed slowly and painfully, like, OK dude? Are we, like, clear now? Like, uhm, OK?

― Callum (Callum), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 21:58 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh wait you were just picking on her syntax/vocab, how dull. I thought it was the content you were after. Had she peppered things with "innit" or "naa'ut ahmean?" would that have been more to your liking

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Hey John, Tallahassee is pretty good.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Part of me wants to say that the fact that Avril actually puts some thought into her "production" = she is not punk.

That would be dumb, though. This whole hand-wringing about defining punk here, and the hand-wringing about defining "rock" elsethread is counter-productive to discussion because we get into these pissing contests about semantics and what's authentic, rather than just getting to the point. Julio is most on the money here, methinks.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't the mere fact the Times includes Av's "like"s and "yeah"s patronising? If Springsteen said "um", would they print it?

― B.Rad (Brad), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:07 (twenty-three years ago)

To hell with punk/not punk, isn't anyone else just irritated by those lyrics, I mean urgh they're so pathetic, as I said before it's like the Limp Bizkit for the stereotypical teenage girl.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:11 (twenty-three years ago)

also the mispronuciation of "complicated" to make it rhyme with the even worse mispronuncation of "frustrated" -- that song just reeks to heaven in so many ways

ps thanks polyphonic!

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:14 (twenty-three years ago)

how should complicated be pronounced? (keep in mind she's quebecois with a big california influence i suspect, accentwise)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:18 (twenty-three years ago)

You may not want to thank me too much, John. After all, you're talking to a guy who actually LIKES "Complicated". ;)

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, John, "complicated" and "frustrated" rhyme the way I say them. (Also, Sterling, I didn't think she was Quebecois, says she's from Napanee Ontario.)

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:21 (twenty-three years ago)

right but she causes both words to bear the stress on the wrong syllable, a pet peeve of mine -- compliCAYted, and then, to make that work, she pretty much eliminates the "u" in "frustrated" - fr'sTRAYted, which exactly no-one ever says -- in poetry, that's called "really bad writing"

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

maybe not Quebecois but i thort french-canadian and raised catholic at least.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm from California and we don't say "frusTRAYted" although I'd guess that a certain demographic among us now do :(

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:30 (twenty-three years ago)

I won't dispute the fact that she's putting the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLAble, John, but she's certainly not the only one to do it. Here's an example of both a shit rhyme and a shit job of meter:

I am an an-ti-CHRIST
I am an an-ar-CHIST

What are you feelings on that one?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Callum, I'm indifferent to AL can I be spared your global genocide?

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:42 (twenty-three years ago)

And for the record, I'm not trying to antagonize you. I always respect your opinion...I'm just trying to figure out why this bugs you so much. Personally, I have little problem with a little bit of poetic license (so to speak) with matters of syllable emphasis than I do with things that are just flat out wrong, like Sarah McLachlan's use of the word "exscape" on the Solace album.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:42 (twenty-three years ago)

for maximum comprehensibility, please replace "little" with "less"

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 22:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Haha you've got to give Sean credit for the Sex Pistols reference.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 23:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes indeed!

If Springsteen said "um", would they print it?

If Robert Hilburn were transcribing it, yes, since every word of The Boss is holy writ to him.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 23:34 (twenty-three years ago)

What initially got me liking "Complicated" the first time I heard it were the odd stressings and strange pronunciations. Also this is why lyrics aren't poetry - the whiney long 'a's dramatise the complication/frustration in ways the words don't.

The lyrics to "Sk8er Boi" i have a lot more problems with - they seem feebly vindictive - non-existent cool gradations used to disguise im-famous-youre-not face-rubbing. It's rock'n'roll alright but it's a bit pathetic too.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 23:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Re: Bob Dylan marketing...the liner notes to The Bootleg Series Vol.1-3 have this sheet from Columbia written sometime in the 60's which is all about Bobbie's marketing possibilities...the focus was on sunglasses obviously.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 23:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Sean - it bugs me when I feel like it's just laziness at work. Rotten/Lydon's "antiCHRIST" increases the volume of an already stressed syllable ("an" is a stronger stress, but "Christ" is still stressed), but doesn't pervert the pronunciation in order to jam it into the verse; he doesn't say "anTIchrist," if you follow me. (Of "anarCHEIST" we shall not speak.) In Ms Levigne's case, the word "frustrated" is literally mispronounced: you can't just take away the stress from "frus" to make it fit yr line.

This bothers me (yes, a lot) when anyone does it; it indicates (to me) that the author felt their line was so good exactly as it was that to work a little harder on it in order to make it scan would somehow compromise it. This is why I can't listen to Br*ght Eyes, whom I thought showed a lot of promise, but who seem to believe that you get to pick and choose your way through English's naturally accentual-syllabic bent: C*nor inflates an unstressed syllable at least two or three times per song.

I hope I don't sound irritated or anything -- I completely love talking about this sort of thing -- I feel certain that I must have succeeded however in putting the rest of the thread soundly to sleep

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Thursday, 28 November 2002 00:46 (twenty-three years ago)

John, considering the fact that language exists in a state of flux (as much as some cultures resist), and that the pronunciation and spelling of most words was regulated de facto until Johnson's dictionary, is it really that annoying when a slangy pop songs features a few lyrical irregularities? I can see why it would be a nuisance to you, but it doesn't seem any more of a big deal than if she had a habit of squinting, or if she was a Mormon, or etc.

A side note: if Avril Lavigne wasn't a young white girl and was in fact a blind old black man, would you be so concerned with her (his) lyrical impropriety?

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 28 November 2002 00:57 (twenty-three years ago)

All grammatical errors in the last post were intentional. ;)

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 28 November 2002 00:58 (twenty-three years ago)

I can accept it in living language fairly easily, but it's not like Avril thought "well, I pronounced 'frustrated' with the accent on the penultimate syllable anyhow, so why shouldn't I sing it like that?" As I commented on the Brainpower thread, I have no problem with all sorts of playful uses of language -- it's when somebody's not speaking like they'd actually speak, but bending a word into a shape they'd never ask it to take if they actually knew how to write. And yes, I don't care if it's Robert Johnson (who never once did this, mind) or Britney Spears (who generally doesn't, either): this particular habit annoys the hell out of me.

A lot of rappers do this to, but -- surprise! -- the best ones almost never seem to find it necessary. In the "almost" lies the obvious truth of your point: say, when Rotten spits "anarCHEIST," why doesn't it chafe? Because he clearly knows what he's doing.

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Thursday, 28 November 2002 01:05 (twenty-three years ago)

by "pronounced" I meant to say "normally pronounce on a day-to-day basis." It's not poetic license to invent pronunciations to suit one's need.

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Thursday, 28 November 2002 01:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Perfectly rational.

I've always had a habit of saying, for example, "What immortal hand or eye / hath framed thy fearful SIH-muh-trye" rather than 'SIH-muh-tree', mostly because it cracks me up.

Avril's faux pas is one of laziness, true, but that doesn't make it any less fun for ME to say "frust-RAY-ted!"

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 28 November 2002 01:15 (twenty-three years ago)

You people know you're talking about Avril Lavigne, right?

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 28 November 2002 01:38 (twenty-three years ago)

v. funny Ally :)

poly-fi, note that you have to completely eliminate the "u" to Be Like Avril - she more or less says "frisstrayted," since to pronounce the short u properly AND stress the "tray" would sound too ridiculous even for our Sk8er Grrl

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Thursday, 28 November 2002 01:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Leave it to a Canadian to stress the "eh".

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 28 November 2002 02:01 (twenty-three years ago)

What arr yoo taalkin' aboot, eh?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Thursday, 28 November 2002 02:09 (twenty-three years ago)

WHO CARES HOW SHE SAYS IT? IF I WANT TO PRONOUNCE "FRUSTRATED" AS "FUCK OFF ALREADY AVRIL LAVIGNE" I WILL DO SO, IT'S MY MOUTH AIN'T IT???

Ahem.

Anyway, she pretty much sucks if you ask me but she's hardly harmful and I didn't think anyone did think she was punk until I came and read these here message boards, and even then everyone seems to just talk about how she's NOT punk. But that synth remix of Skater Boi is the greatest song in the history of sonic, um, sound.

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 28 November 2002 02:20 (twenty-three years ago)

By the way, I understand where you're coming from better now, John. It still doesn't bug me the same way it bugs you, but I get it.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Thursday, 28 November 2002 02:30 (twenty-three years ago)

re: Avril Lavingne

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jul/20027212112403907403781.jpg

― chaki (chaki), Thursday, 28 November 2002 02:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Chaki is the man.

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 28 November 2002 03:06 (twenty-three years ago)

I have to admit that the "feebly vindictive" stuff in "Sk8er Boi" is most of why I find her cute: they're so teenagily deluded and earnestly catty and something you'd sort of laugh over in a 14 year old's diary. Add to that the stuff in "Complicated" like the odd "frustrated" and the silly accent on "strike a pose" and ... Well, this is what I meant when I said that I found the whole concept fantastically improbable. People have complained about Avril's being a culturally clueless teenager and, amazingly, the songs come across to me as exactly that, in a funny and surprising and really enjoyable way. Others complain that she's some cynically exploitative marketing scheme, but the only scheme I see is exactly the one above: she'll act like a spunky entertaining ridiculous teenager, which I think is sort of cool to watch.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 28 November 2002 06:17 (twenty-three years ago)

grown men debating the punkness of avril lavigne... it's distasteful. you should probably know better.

― d k (d k), Thursday, 28 November 2002 07:04 (twenty-three years ago)

the kids:

she doesskate, she can play her guitar, andnobody can be as gay as britney queers (except you of course). She is herself on her cd and i think you just follow people. try being what you are instead of being someone else. she can play a guitar better then u can play a woman, and u probably have to ave stabilisers on a fucking skateboard!

shes really cool and has a gr8 voice. anyone who hates her is a sucer coz they dont know real rockand nu metal

Her inspiration for her music comes from her ass. Her latest quote: "Why should I know about the Sex Pistols?" She's not too bright either and doesn't know what an inferiority complex is.

Avril rocks cause a haerd that she's good at suckin dick! She would make a great hore.

avril lavigne is neither. she is a poseur. i hate her. she tries sooo hard to put out this "bad girl" image when in reality shes nothing but britney spears in a tie. she RUINED my fucking life. everywhere i go people stop me and say "LIKE OMG! you look like avril lavigne" im guessing they dont understand what an insult that is.

Why can't Avril call herself "punk?" What does it matter? Who cares what she calls herself! She can be who and whatever she wants! You could call yourself an ice-skater and never have ice-skated in your life. It's just a title!

http://www.the-n.com/qa/settle.php?ipv_sectionID=28&ipv_debateID=164

http://www.dotvsdot.co.uk/vs/0/2853.html

http://www.nerd-love.org/avrilsucks/pics/highschool.html

http://www.eslcafe.com/discussion/dj/index.cgi?read=9467

― d k (d k), Thursday, 28 November 2002 07:05 (twenty-three years ago)

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Some classic moments from Sunday's NY Times article on Avril Lavigne...