Did Eminem murder Jay-Z on Renegade?

Em's verses are great, yes.

(I'm not an Eminem fan)

the song sucks and is perhaps the worst track on the album, but not because of any outmatched skillsets. the beat is nothing, neither performer brought their best game, and jay and em have about as much chemistry as onions and grape jelly. instant skip since 9.11.01 and one of the most overdiscussed bores in hiphop history. i'd like a world in which eminem never gets talked about ever again. ever.

I've not heard this in at least seven years or so and I don't really like it. But I think the music is dictating who comes out better imo as it's strange and quite dissonant hearing Jay over an Eminem beat.

Also I have a bit of a tin ear to judging rap based on flow, etc. The congruence or incongruence between voice and music is usually what my mind goes to when I'm forced to think about these things.

Austin’s take is mine as well. Kind of a non-zone of a song.

It's a nu-metal song in rap drag.

I would never want to skip Renegade, it's a great tune! (skip "Hola' Hovito" maybe "Girls, Girls, Girls", "All I Need")

Em is divisive, but if you have any time for his tone, his first on this song is flawlessly composed and executed imo

haha Alfred it def has that vibe

the oo-assonance in these lines is just a treat

Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
But I'm debated, disputed, hated and viewed in America
As a motherfuckin' drug addict, like you didn't experiment?
Now, now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
And see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrassed
And I got nothin' to do but make you look stupid as parents
You fuckin' do-gooders, too bad you couldn't do good at marriage (Haha)
And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here?
I don't think you do, so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo

with metrics so perfect a much lesser rapper would also come off sounding very accomplished delivering it

I'm also not an Eminem fan and the content of these lines (his whole controversial martyr shtick) is not up my alley, but I can def appreciate the skill

I'm also not crazy about "Hola Hovito" and you're otm about Em's skill here.

(skip "Hola' Hovito" maybe "Girls, Girls, Girls", "All I Need")

top three beats on the album lol tough crowd

mcs are overrated and overdiscussed too, in case anyone was wondering.

ironically, the only person who has ever "murdered someone on their own shit" that comes to mind for me is nas. and he's done it twice* for crying out loud. what a fucking asshole.

*"live at the barbecue" and "verbal intercourse"

I mean, Em’s verse on that song is hands down better. Jay’s is a bit phoned in. It’s also not a great track and I never saw having a strong guest verse as the equivalent of being “murdered.” Nas waging an imaginary proxy battle.

It’s also not a great track and I never saw having a strong guest verse as the equivalent of being “murdered.”

Though isn't that the mythology of Kendrick's famous verse on "Control," where he even takes aim at the people on the track with him?

Agree with Austin and others that the is the bum song on the album, the whole feel and production clashes with the feel of the project

Ironically, the only person who has ever "murdered someone on their own shit" that comes to mind for me is nas. and he's done it twice* for crying out loud. what a fucking asshole.

― "i'm grateful." (Austin), Monday, January 30, 2023 7:16 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

See I don't really get this "murdered" thing, I mean it's not like Main Source add Large P thing was like Large P is the super rappingest lyrical beat down dude, I took it more like them showcasing the kid like goddamn check him out

His Verbal Intercourse verse (honestly maybe his greatest verse ever?) is so evocative, almost mournful in a way, I don't really think of it as murdering the other rappers, again doesn't feel like a competitive thing at least to me

Main Source was a group that was about making records to me, not primarily lyricism to be more concise

Though isn't that the mythology of Kendrick's famous verse on "Control," where he even takes aim at the people on the track with him?

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, January 30, 2023 7:35 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

- precursor to this would be LL's verse on 4, 3, 2, 1 where he hears Canibus's line about his mic tattoo which he perceived as a diss then goes back in the studio to rewrite his verse to diss Canibus and provoking Canibus to respond with 2nd Round KO

bad choice of metaphor with the murdering and killing, but surely rappers featured on the same compete to some extent

just like jazz combos and blues guitarists

em's verses are great, prob a couple of his best ever. agree that jay's verses are a bit dull by comparison but he deserves credit for coming up with the concept and generally being great enough to motivate em to black out

anyone else remember that the cd cover misspelled it as "renagade?"

(skip "Hola' Hovito" maybe "Girls, Girls, Girls", "All I Need")

GGG is like the best song on the record smh (though GGG2 might be even better)

See I don't really get this "murdered" thing, I mean it's not like Main Source add Large P thing was like Large P is the super rappingest lyrical beat down dude, I took it more like them showcasing the kid like goddamn check him out

UMS otm. It's silly to think about, like, someone saying to Q-Tip "You should be embarrassed at how Busta killed you on 'Scenario'" or something. I'm sure there's a component of competition/pushing each other, but there's obviously also a spirit of collaboration/making art in these things.

nah. i like jay's 2nd verse on this one

The beat on Renegade is fantastic, easily the best production credited to Eminem. Always thought Jay sounded great on it too, they both do.

(skip "Hola' Hovito" maybe "Girls, Girls, Girls", "All I Need")
GGG is like the best song on the record smh (though GGG2 might be even better)

― k3vin k., Monday, January 30, 2023 10:09 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

can't really imagine skipping "all i need," that's like the epitome of the glossed up, shit talkin roc-a-fella sound

All this chatter is making me listen to The Blueprint again, first spin a while. So damn confident.

I take back the idea of skipping all i need

renegade would prob have been a better fit for a different album, iirc Jay called for soul samples and got it for most of the beats

xpost: yeah that's why i put "murdered someone on their own shit" in quotes like i just did again there. if we're talking about someone going on the same record with another rapper with sole intent of making them look bad on their own record, the only real example of that i can think of is the second LONS album. those dudes were just... mad at each other and refusing to choose violence (went off into metaphysical gibberish instead iirc).

i don't count "4,3,2,1" because that was ll doing it on his own song. he had clearly "studied the rhyme" then wrote his verse after canibus. and well, c'mon ll: that's a bitch move.

anyway, yes: blueprint is eternal classic and jay's best.

did the original version that was Royce and Eminem over the same beat ever leak or was released?

was checking wikipedia notes and found out that it was repurposed for Renegade after Royce was told he could only have one Eminem feature

Xpost I haven't listened to TIME in forever will have to listen with that in mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_O_-URLgIM

i like that version better

i like how jay comes in with the “motherfuckers” right before his verse starts on the next beat

xxxp yeah maybe it's going too far to ignore the competitive aspect, but I guess with this particular track I always felt more like it was an Em feature, one of the weaker tracks on the album, and not one where Jay was exactly going all out.

Eminem was seemingly not even competing with Jay-Z, since it seems his verse was already completed before Jay repurposed the song.

anyway, yes: blueprint is eternal classic and jay's best.

― "i'm grateful." (Austin)

Reasonable Doubt
The Blueprint
Life and Times of S. Carter

i can guarantee the only version of "renegade" you ever need to listen to is the lil wayne freestyle on sqad up 4, it's one of the best things he's ever done so by default miles better than mediocre jay z & eminem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXBaqtJJT2k

I agree that the song's not great, also that Eminem acquits himself fine. I assume the mythology around this is tied to Em's cultural place in '01, he was at his early peak as a pop star and I think "Renegade" provided some credibility for him (or for his serious rap fans) against accusations of getting by on funny voices, pop hooks and dyed blond hair. I think "murdered" is way too strong, but it's fair to say he showed up with something to prove and did it.

It also shored up his cred as a producer.

always hated the chorus. renegaiiiiide 🤦

lil wayne verse is so sick

always hated the chorus. renegaiiiiide 🤦

― flopson, Monday, January 30, 2023 3:53 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

same. Whoever said numetal OTM.

Counterpoint: the song is great.

We should be talking about The Blueprint as a whole. I’ve dipped into it lately and (for the most part) it’s solid in a way I didn’t fully appreciate at the time.

“U Don’t Know” sparkles like diamonds on a black velvet cloth. It’s definitive super hero music

nas line about this song always felt like overstatement but imo eminem does kind of steal the song

I like renegade, tho

Have always loved Blueprint, just not particularly this track. It's fine overall, not one of the better tracks.

When I see this thread I subconsciously read “yo is it true jay z got sonned by a wite kid after a aol beef??????

nah. i like jay's 2nd verse on this one

otm, the 2nd verse comes in with Jay's really good stuff but God that Wayne version obliterates it

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

i think you could argue em is better than jay on this but its all so meh who cares? what's annoying is people who then take that concession to adduce that em's verse is the highlight of the album. now that's really stupid.

best diss on a collaboration is styles P dissing jay-z on reservoir dogs; lore has it that jay pissed off styles during the recording, inspiring styles' ethering of the unnamed "you" on that track

that would indeed be an insane take

really just wanted to poll because of the assertion in the p4k sunday review that Nas' punchline was "a ridiculous claim that has nevertheless been internalized by generations of rap fans"

which rings both true and false to me, true that it's been internalized by many fans, false that it's a ridiculous claim (it's an over-the-top metaphor that holds some truth)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

ok so he didn't murder him

hate the way that Eminem pronounces Renegade, his worst moment before "I guess that's why they call it window pain"

cleared of all charges

(apart from the annoying pronunciation)