Acts that neither rockists nor poptimists like

Thinking along the lines of Celine Dion, Michael Bolton, Richard Marx, Il Divo, Michael Buble and Josh Groban here. These people obviously have lots of fans, but you don't exactly find a lot of them among those who actually talk about music.

Being neither a poptimist nor a rockist, I guess I may be the kind one might expect to like this kind of stuff, as I like highly melodic music with somehow smooth studio production, but really, they don't give me much in terms of what I am looking for either, like interesting modulations or chords or clever details in the arrangements.

But again, there are obviously a lot of people who do like them.

I guess..

Celine Dion definitely has both vocal stans and poptimist critic defenders. (I'm neither, she's alright)

A band that I mentioned in another thread: the Lumineers.

You could throw in folkers as not liking them either.

Speaking of Celine Dion: Carl Wilson’s book “let’s talk about love: why do people have bad taste” and the 33 1/3 book about “Let’s talk about love” are good reads and I guess pertinent to this thread.

Also is Celine Dion really disliked? I know influential modern pop artists like Ariana Grande, Camila Cabello, Taylor Swift and Caroline Polachek loved her music and cite her as influence.

I probably lean more rockist than poptimist but some of Carl Wilson's book made pretty compelling arguments (on mostly non-musical grounds).

Given how universally hated Grimes is now (for mostly non-musical reasons), would someone like that count?

Previous fans hate Grimes, not her music. Although her last songs have definitely been things not even her most insane fans left can defend.

Would you say the poptimist POV can more easily extricate/compartmentalize music from the person?

Clay Aiken

Would you say the poptimist POV can more easily extricate/compartmentalize music from the person?

I'm not an expert on "poptimist history" but I had the impression that, early on, it was a celebration of the impersonality and disposability of pop music, almost to the point of ignoring the creators. More recently, it became "rockism, but with pop artists", with the persona as the forefront of attention.

I thought this was going to be a slightly disrespectful RIP thread...

Feel like ILM underrates Buffet as a songwriter. How bad could a tour through the man's 70s-80s discography be?

"Trollin' for deep cuts..."

Grateful Dead?

Paul Barman

Would these be mostly artists that choir people and/or musical theater people like, do you think?

Does this mean something other “artists not generally respected by critics”?

Deacon Blue

Deacon Blue too earnest for the poptimist, too pop to be taken seriously by the rockists

Real Gone Kid & Dignity are great tunes tho

I'd be more interested in reading something by someone who loves celine dion than whatever anthropological or sociological study he's trying to do xps

however most of this music is shit and the R/P dichotomy (which feels like a culture war from another decade) doesn't come into it

as for what poptimism celebrates about pop it was never very coherent or consistent anyway and mostly seems to have been a bunch of talking points for lapsed indie kids to use to defend themselves against their more devout brethren who felt that listening to music that sounds good was betraying some kind of principle

xp I feel like Deacon Blue are the uncool version of Prefab Sprout, and that Prefab Sprout kind of manage to do the opposite of this (i.e. get respect from both rockists and poptimists)? I'll always love Raintown, though.

feels like a culture war from another decade

I was surprised to find that this thread wasn't a revive from twenty years ago.

I'd be more interested in reading something by someone who loves celine dion than whatever anthropological or sociological study he's trying to do xps

Wilson talks to a lot of Dion fans in his book, and treats them with a lot of respect, which is better than some superfan writing from a defensive stance. The funniest thing about the book for me was it was originally proposed as a study of a Pere Ubu record!

Would you say the poptimist POV can more easily extricate/compartmentalize music from the person?

― Philip Nunez, sábado 2 de septiembre de 2023 03:33 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm not an expert on "poptimist history" but I had the impression that, early on, it was a celebration of the impersonality and disposability of pop music, almost to the point of ignoring the creators. More recently, it became "rockism, but with pop artists", with the persona as the forefront of attention.

― Halfway there but for you

Yeah, this is a good point. The figure of modern popstars is very differently perceived 00’s onwards when rock started fading out in the mainstream and pop songwriting started to find a new level of respect amongst different audiences.

I’m probably not the right person to make such analysis. Ime browsing thru subreddits such as indieheads, popheads and hiphopheads, I’ve noticed popheads in particular are very sensitive and unforgiving when an artist makes controversial statements or acts hurtful… indieheads pretty much in the same ballpark but not as strict, hiphopheads is more of a mixed bag.

Paging Kenny G to thread

the refusal to embrace kenny g is proof that rockists and poptimists are united in their disdain for working class music

Does this mean something other “artists not generally respected by critics”?

― Stoned Wheat Thing (morrisp), Saturday, September 2, 2023 12:36 PM (three hours ago)

no

ok

the refusal to embrace kenny g is proof that rockists and poptimists are united in their disdain for working class music

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Saturday, September 2, 2023 2:47 PM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol

neither rockington nor popscow

The Knack

I agree this feels like an old idea especially because I hear more music out in the wild that feels like some ultra algorithmically optimized king rat of dance, hip hop, classic rock and pop, like this kind of bland yet bizarre dubstep remix of "down under" by men at work I heard at a souvenir t-shirt shop in Colorado....

Also musical trends are cyclical. There was a time when being idk an Elton John fan was cool, then it was very uncool and now it’s cool again.

Gaudy is trending again so it wouldn’t surprise me to see people on those hideous cybertrucks wearing ed hardy and blasting il divo.

imagine dragons

The first band I thought of was Muse, but I don’t actually know them well enough to know. Just an impression. Imagine Dragons is a good answer.

A little outdated but Mumford & Sons

Do “poptimists” like Maroon 5?

Does Barry Manilow have any defenders?

How about Melissa Manchester? I love “Midnight Blue” and the album it came from is solid. I also adore “Don’t Cry Out Loud” which Manchester herself supposedly hates, but it’s precisely the OTT emoting combined with the utterly *toxic* advice of the lyric that makes it memorable.

There's probably a lot of 70s acts in the soft rock/adult contemporary mode who have fans among the general population, but have few defenders among poptimists (solo Eric Carmen?)

Richard Marx: I thought “Hazard” at the least was considered good on this board.

I don’t think anyone defends (or cares about) a faceless, indeed interchangeable group like The Grass Roots, even though they were all over AM radio in their time, and are still staples on the oldies stations. “Midnight Confessions” should be on the “Songs where the singer/protagonist comes off as a serious dick without meaning to” if it already isn’t.

Barbara Streisand

Creed from the Office was in the Grass Roots, that's maybe one point in their favor

The one time I saw Zevon live was him opening for Dick Marx - so just maybe, he knew how to tow the line.

Joe Bonamassa

Actually rockists probably love him but I think he's the Antichrist sorry

Ed Sheeran
Meghan Trainor

Does Barry Manilow have any defenders?

Steve Huey?

Chris Brown

Do “poptimists” like Maroon 5?

― Lavator Shemmelpennick

This is a good one maybe. Rockists used to like them for like an album, then popists kind liked them for a couple but nowadays it seems noone wants anything to do with them.

the peak British version of this is like Rag & Bone Man. Sheeran still gets the occasional pop critic prop and ILX EOY votes, but him? lol, the purest pandering normie fodder (caveat: i don't know what he sounds like, maybe it's trad bangers my m8s!)

....unless he's a rockist project, which is feasible, insofar as such an idea still exists