More from the genius of Avril Lavigne

Nice to see counting is high on the Canadian curriculum. I can no longer say Our Lady Peace is Canada's premier rock band, it seems.

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go.to/stevek

A: Well, I'm in Mexico and I'm eighteen, so I'm drinking-age here, and Mexico is known for its tequila, so let's just leave it at that.

I've just worked out why I hate Avril so much. You know those people who obviously didn't touch a drop of alcohol until they were 18, so, as soon as they hit that age, they just drink anything they can find (including Reef and WKD, actually, just Reef and WKD), and get retarded after two units, and think that alcohol is, like, really cool, and go "Hey! Let's get drunk!" and they think that makes them some kind of big fucking rebel just for having a drink? Avril is one of these people.

Still, Avril could say "Really, you've got to blame the blacks for that whole slavery thing", and 20% of ILM would defend her.

Also, drinking age is 19 in Canada.

(Drinking age in Ontario, her home province, is 19. It's 18 in Quebec though.)

P.S. Drinking is fun.

Nope.

What I find amusing about Avril -- and I for one can't really muster up any hate for anyone these days -- is that, yeah, the only difference between her and that girl at Cosi is a recording contract. I'm thankful that she's famous so I can be entertained by her interviews.

check out the pics on:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/users/users_matrix.html

"Have you got an Electronics Boutqiue loyalty card?"

As for that picture -- so her production team is Fred Schneider, Perry Farrell and Anne Rice?

Like yeah, she's obviously only a few inches to the left of Britney. Woohoo, thanks for pointing that out, Einstein.

For a teenage girl, she's very typical. And teenage girls tend to be fairly stupid. So why is her immaturity an issue?

This is a little off-topic, but it's what I see in Avril. That same thing I see in my sister and all her friends.

Sorry, can't resist.

I think Avril is nasty in Complicated too, I mean how does she know the guy isn't really a preppy who feels under pressure from his girlfriend, what a bitch, why can't she just let him be whatever he wants to be. It's not very nice for her to beat down his efforts to become a preppy if it's really what he wants. I mean surely being a teenager is all about discovering who you are anyway.

I'm not really serious about this but I'm not totally joking either.

Was electroclash the last thing which had daily threads dissing it?

"Contemporary punk is different to 70's punk and if people like Avril want to claim the moniker then let them. Not many 18 yr olds (esp. girls who call themselves punks and like sk8ter bois) would be disagreeing with her anyway.

Why should female punk and male punk sound the same? Males and females who hang out in the same social groups (and are often therefore referred to using a common word) frequently produce and indulge in quite different stuff. Sure, this isn't always the case but as far as music goes, most female voices have very different qualities to most male voices and in most of the heavier styles of music the songs sung by females tend to be more poppy or more melodic. If people choose to express similar sentiments in different vocal styles then what's the problem?

It seems funny that people say "Avril's not punk" and then "Avril can't play the guitar" and "Avril's lyrics are crap" - when most punk is totally crap lyrics & musicianship and so if she is or was aiming at being punk then if her lyrics are crap, she can't play the guitar and she dresses punk then she's at least 3/4 of the way there. The only 1/4 she got wrong was the slick production."

Uh, your third paragraph completely contradicts the two before it. If Avril's punk is a different, "contemporary," "female" version of punk that can't be measured by the standards of old, male punk, then how can you justify her crap guitar playing, lyrics, and fashion by saying she's trying to fit in with punk's past? She's either the different or the same, not both. Pick one.

In fact, let me go out on a limb and speculate a little, and apologies if this doesn't apply to anyone here. Perhaps she is the opposite of what ILM might call a "rockist" review of a chart record: she waltzes into the realm of punk and treats it like just another set of gestures for pop music, and maybe what some people are experiencing is a "no fair" reaction. If people who like rock are expected to take the differing standards of pop seriously, they might say, then surely it's fair for us to expect the same of a pop artist banking on the M.O. of a rock genre.

And yeah, this is possibly what I like about it. I don't understand prickliness about punk: in the U.S., anyway, popular "punk" since the late 80s at least has been just as much about funny pop bands as "serious" material -- I like the Mr. T Experience, I like the Queers, I like the Descendents' "I'm the One," I like the sort of Lookout punk that treats the form as just a platform for hooky fun-having. Avril strikes me as an interesting variation on this sort of thing.

I also don't like this assumption that Avril must necessarily think she's really cool or clever for doing what she does. I don't know, I've not really read her interviews. But on a track like "Sk8er Boi" she seems more, to me, like a girl having fun dressing up for a high-school talent show, stealing a tie from her father's closet for a nice "punk" touch, having a ball doing it, and then somehow being allowed to take that show on the road. If she does think it's ridiculously clever of her, I don't think that would bother me too much either: I think there's something sort of cute and funny about the way teenagers think they're brilliant for doing stuff like this. That's half of how high school works in this country, and Avril's lyrics and personality are nothing if not totally high school.

For those who just don't like the songs, fair enough, obviously. Personally I like them both a lot. Also I find them fun and surprising, which is the main thing: the first time I heard "Sk8er Boi" I was amazed and I freaked out a little and cranked up the car radio and sped a bit. It was fun, and it was funny -- funny in a cute way, funny in the sense that one can be both impressed and amused by a lot of teenagers' teenagery behavior. I don't mean to imply that my enjoyment of this stuff is patronizing -- more like the way I imagine parents would just chuckle lovingly at the funny being-cool excesses of their teenaged children. Thinking it's incredibly important whether she's actually cool or clever only means descending to the high-school level she's at on "Sk8er Boi," doesn't it? Saying "no one will remember you in five years" is saying something a lot like what she's fantasizing about saying to the ballet girl.

Anyway, I like it. It's light and peppy and fun; I'm tempted to make a Cyndi Lauper reference. If you take rock very seriously and don't appreciate her messing with it so casually, I suppose that's a valid opinion, but I think the stuff she's dealing with can afford to be tweaked a little right now.

Uh, I don't hear a thing in her music that is "punk," even compared to more "pop" forms of "punk." But I won't open that can of worms again.

Nabisco, you're my boy and I love you like a brother, but this is possibly the most (unintentionally-) hilarious thing I've read in a while. "I'm not PATRONizing, I'm patronIZING. See, it's different!"

Right, Dan, so to me, it sounds like Toraneko is saying Avril's version of punk is a "different" version of punk. But then the third paragraph, he/she (sorry) justifies Avril's lyrics,guitarplaying, and fashion by saying she is actually the "same" as other punk. This seems like wanting to have yr cake and eat it too.

Speaking of annoying, why did Weezer have to come back?

Bringing up another point: is Avril a multiple-platinum-selling recording artist because she couldn't get into college?

Maybe so, since I don't "see" music, I "hear" it.

Eighth-note palm-mute power chords shifting every measure and then un-muting for the chorus are evident in heavy metal, too, something that's decidely not punk.

Cf. Sum 41!

Anyway, what I was going to grant was that the "format" of that single could just as easily be described as power-pop or alt-rock. The thing is that power-pop, alt-rock, and pop-punk have all boiled down to a common basis of sorts: I think what separates them has less to do with the sound and more to do with the gestures that are used to communicate them. I could easily imagine "Sk8er Boi" as an Ash song, or a Superdrag song, or even a Cheap Trick song -- probably more so than "punk" -- but "punk" has still been brought to the table by these people saying "it's not real punk," and I think that's because those accompanying gestures put it in that realm. I dunno, maybe we can at least agree that it's silly for people to cry "it's not real punk" -- you because you don't think it's anything to do with punk in the first place, me because I don't think it matters.

Also to Dan: I don't think that attitude is necessarily patronizing at all! For instance: I listen to "California Uber Alles" and I think Jello is a political idiot and basically ridiculous with that original approach to Jerry Brown, of all people -- but I still find it funny and fun and get a chuckle out of his antics. I don't think that's necessarily "patronizing." I don't think it's patronizing for me to chuckle over the Queers singing "yummy yummy punk rock girls," and I don't think it's patronizing for me to chuckle lovingly over early Ween and think "Jesus, this is great, these guys must have been stoned out of their heads when they came up with that." I think there's a difference between being actively patronizing and just being amused by someone's silly antics -- and I think the difference is whether you think those silly antics are "important" or not.

(Haha also I think everyone should keep going with the Avril threads -- if we all write in full sentences then next year's Da Capo is totally ours.)

Why would I hate you, esp. about that Chicago comment (which I forgot about, btw)? I don't at all, I just thought your example was flimsy. I've only heard parts of two songs by Avril, all of "Complicated" and about 10 seconds of "Sk8er Boi," and I didn't think either were punk in the musical sense (forget the social/cultural/political/whatever sense, because she surely isn't that at all).

I think that when I brought up punk on that other thread of her NY Times quotes, a lot of people (not naming names or anything) thought that I meant it in a "she's-not-doctrinaire-school-of-'77" way, which wasn't what I meant at all. Then again, I'm not sure if I was the first to bring up punk anyways, since it's been claimed both by her and her media/industry champions, and if it's wrong for me to comment on that, well I don't wanna be right.

I dunno, maybe we can at least agree that it's silly for people to cry "it's not real punk" -- you because you don't think it's anything to do with punk in the first place, me because I don't think it matters.

I think I can agree to that.

Meeting was quite scintillating then, I take it.

No, I mean someone who doesn't know/doesn't care about that type of music and is being exposed to it for the first time.

I'll give you an example: when I booked bands at my college, I booked mostly indie rock (even though I liked a lot more music than just that), for the reason that it was cheaper to put on shows (and hey, I like Jeru too, but I'm not gonna spend $15K plus a lot of ridiculous rider expenses on him, esp. when our budget was about $10K a semester - meaning I could do a lot of indie shows). A few people into dance, hip-hop, other kinds of music would come to the indie rock shows and be kind of confused in terms of what they were hearing. I'd hear from them, say, Polvo and Shellac sound alike, why bring both of them? Now, to anyone who's familiar with those two bands, there's many ways to point out the differences, but to someone who's not really that interested in the genre as a whole, how are they going to understand differences and nuances that fans take for granted?

{/tangent}

also, what are there no cheap 2nd tier (i.e. "indie") dance, hip-hop etc. artists that are available for booking?

Not any that I knew of in '94-'97. Back then, everyone was clamoring for Jeru the Damaja, but his rider was ridiculous (yeah, like I'm gonna fly you in to Poughkeepsie, then send a limo, then provide you and your 50+ entourage with buckets of fried chicken [serious!]).

In contrast, all Loren Mazzacane Connors asked for in addition to the guarantee was a ride from the P-town train station. But then again, he's a virtual saint, so...

Obviously this {/tangent} tag doesn't work.

In the next paragraph I am saying that people may create different stuff somewhat due to their different gender despite being part of the same culture or subculture but that it is still valid to label it according to their sub/culture's label.

In the last paragraph I am using an interpretation of punk that is, or was, quite common and showing, in an ironic fashion, that Avril does meet the criteria of this interpretation of punk.

The idea of separating writing into paragraphs is that each paragraph explores a different idea.

I can't believe that anyone seriously, literally interprets a "describe in five words" type of question as meaning "only use five words" or even "only use five adjectives". Surely the idea of this type of question is only to prevent a one word answer?

Why did so many people pick on Avril for not using on five words and yet neglect to pick on me for saying "a couple of things had occurred to me" and then listing four or more? I had originally written "a few" but changed it to "a couple" to test how picky you guys really were. It is now obvious that you were just looking for (pathetic) excuses to pick on Avril.

As for whether Avril is "punk" or not, I cant think of a criteria for judging music that interests me less. Pass.

-- kilian Murphy (kilian.murphy2...), December 4th, 2002.

ok i dont want to tell ppl my real name but this a a response to this
word slag means kill somebody now also a bunch of guys rapeing killing avril now thats just sick and sucking horse semen no no no you must be in undead mother fucker to say that but well i love her and her songs my fav song is sk8ter boi and complacated is also great so to the ppl that hate her just go fuck your slfes and leaves us ppl alone!

"slag" = "make fun of". "slag" != "frag".

There is more than meets the eye - I see the soul that is sinside.

Sinside? Freudian.