"He's trying too hard."

He's trying to sing notes that he can't really hit and doing so in a grating, piercing, painful-sounding manner that would make anyone with a smidgeon of vocal training run for the hills.

Laid back schmoozy can suck too (my ire for Jay-Z and Stephen Malkmus comes from this quality), but one only has to watch Star Search or American Idol to know that Way Too Hard can be (but admittedly, isn't always) grating.

Yeh like he's trying to throw a bowling ball to rest on a postage stamp, and failing but keepin' on trying; the sound of his voice like its tryin' to slip through the needle's eye: all squeeze-compressed and overly high, s'brilliant, I don't understand.

He's trying to sing notes that he can't really hit and doing so in a grating, piercing, painful-sounding manner that would make anyone with a smidgeon of vocal training run for the hills.

Dan - do you like Sting?

And yes. I agree, Dan. It is brilliant.

(Or slap bass?)

(Or slap bass?)

Sting as a singer was good back in his day. Lately he sounds like he's been gargling rocks. Sting as a songwriter still has his moments ("Fields Of Gold", "Desert Rose") but in general can go leap off a bridge.

I really, really like slap-bass when done correctly (hence past defenses of the Red Hots and Primus).

You seem to be missing my entire point, which is that since I'm a (somewhat) trained singer, I can hear everything that Justin (allegedly another trained singer) is doing wrong to hit those notes and it drives me up the wall.

Yeh - no - I saw that. I was just trying to prod you a little (by hinting at musodom). The point that I was making is that - there is no "should" in singing, I suppose. In that sense, training would be a constraining of thought.

We're just on different sides of the rampart I suppose. I don't care about his technique, just the final sound, which I think is annoying and horrible, gratey, reminds me of being chased by drain-wielding lunatics, and is thus great. It isn't good (to contradict my first paragraph), but I like it.

It's kinda like he is trying too too hard and he's never gonna be what he wants to be which is both a) endearing.

I don't want all my singers the same; sometimes noise isn't noise.

i like to hear some effort! whether or not it works is usually up for debate, but it's nice to be able to tell that someone's sweating a little.

To be honest, I didn't mind Justin's song when I first heard it on the VMAs in August (only because I like Neptunes productions) but as soon as the TV channels seized their grimey paws on the video...Good jeebers, it was everywhere! You couldn't escape it even for a second - go to the toilet to take a dump and it's on and will never stop!

I do agree though with the squeeziness of his vocal style, though I think squeeze is such a subtle word - more like screaming while on the toilet.

Dan how on earth do you like any alternative bands at all? I mean, The Cure! Are technically awful vocals okay when they just doesn't give a fuck? (that was a serious question BTW).

For what it's worth I agree with David's take on both Justin generally and his falsetto in particular - the way he works up to the "urrgheeghhahhiiiiiiiiiii just wanna luv ya baybeheheheh..." bit is bizarre and fascinating.

Robert Smith has a very idiosyncratic voice, yes, but most of that is due to his accent and the way he forms vowels. He's NEVER off-pitch on record and very rarely off-pitch live. (And, as I've said before, there are instances where his yelping can ruin a song for me: "A Thousand Hours" and "Mint Car" leap instantly to mind.) He could benefit from some vocal coaching, yes, but I don't hear anything painful or wrong in the way he's producing his sound. This is supported by the fact that over twenty years into his career, his voice sounds very few signs of strain or damage; his range has shifted (which happens to everyone) but there's no raspiness or hoarseness in his voice.

On top of this, I am more lenient on "alternative"/rock singers than I am on pop or R&B singers, largely because vocal technical proficiency is historically and socially more important in R&B and pop than it is in rock and alternative; you will NEVER find a pop or R&B group where the lead singer is the guy who drew the short straw at the first rehearsal.

ha, your contradictory tastes in singers must meet somewhere, so i'm suggesting that you adopt Cradle of Filth as your new favorite band- one singer has the shrieking opera-type vocal skills and the other sounds like satan vomiting molten lava... ENJOY!!!

Ha, Cradle of Filth was my favorite band for about a week in 2000!