alpine static otm in MJ Lenderman
this is a classic case of the greater music critic ecosystem finding the previous cool/underground album too late to review it when it came out, then overreacting to the next record - which in this case is good! don't get me wrong, i like this one. but Boat Songs is better (imo).
I feel like this happens a lot
what are other classic cases?
surely High Violet by The National and Bon Iver s/t
more recent example: Arooj Aftab (Vulture Prince >>> Night Reign - again no shade, this is central, Night Reign is good, but it's no Vulture Prince)
― corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 17:46 (two months ago) link
l'rain
― nxd, Friday, 27 September 2024 17:48 (two months ago) link
The 1975 with I like it when you sleep > Brief Inquiry
― Murgatroid, Friday, 27 September 2024 17:50 (two months ago) link
each successive Replacements album after Let It Be seemed to get this reaction as their reputation accumulated and their quality drifted downwards.
― Theracane Gratifaction (bendy), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:18 (two months ago) link
There was a lot of this in the 80s as bands jumped from indie labels to majors. The acclaim for Warehouse: Songs and Stories felt like critics catching up on HD's entire career right at the end.
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:23 (two months ago) link
This is Xgau's shtick.
― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:28 (two months ago) link
All Boris previous albums > Pink.
― Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:31 (two months ago) link
Queens of the Stone Age - S/t > Rated R
when i read the early '90s Rolling Stone album guide this was also their schtick. they loved the dreaded "ambitious" or "sprawling" or "mature" albums.
― omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:31 (two months ago) link
xxp
Isis - Oceanic > Panopticon
― Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:32 (two months ago) link
not sure I'm seeing this with Night Reign tbh -- Vulture Prince won a grammy lol. I agree that VP > NR though
― rob, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:32 (two months ago) link
Initial reviews of Be Here Now were, in John Harris's words, unanimous with "truly amazing praise". According to Harris, "To find an album that had attracted gushing notices in such profusion, one had to go back thirty years, to the release of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."[55]...Reviews in the British music press for (What's the Story) Morning Glory? had been generally negative. When it went on to become, in the words of Select editor Alexis Petridis, "this huge kind of zeitgeist-defining record", the music press was "baffled".[57] Petridis believed the initial glowing reviews of Be Here Now were a concession to public opinion.[57]
...
Reviews in the British music press for (What's the Story) Morning Glory? had been generally negative. When it went on to become, in the words of Select editor Alexis Petridis, "this huge kind of zeitgeist-defining record", the music press was "baffled".[57] Petridis believed the initial glowing reviews of Be Here Now were a concession to public opinion.[57]
― Kim Kimberly, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:32 (two months ago) link
The acclaim for Warehouse: Songs and Stories felt like critics catching up on HD's entire career right at the end.― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:23 (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:23 (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Absolutely
I still say the reaction to Daydream Nation was given because the press missed out on Sister. But that may be a controversial POV
― Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:34 (two months ago) link
xp rob fair point!
still feel like the reception of NR is overcompensating (less than for the Love in Exile collab though)
― corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:34 (two months ago) link
Phoebe Bridgers, Stranger in the Alps > Punisher
― jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:34 (two months ago) link
definitely!
― corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:37 (two months ago) link
the-dream love vs money (ignored) vs love king (overrated)
― flopson, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:38 (two months ago) link
re:
Initial reviews of Be Here Now were, in John Harris's words, unanimous with "truly amazing praise". According to Harris, "To find an album that had attracted gushing notices in such profusion, one had to go back thirty years, to the release of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."[55]
can't tell if it's implied in this otm quote, but indeed Sgt. Pepper's is a classic example!
― corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:45 (two months ago) link
I don't think Revolver was overlooked.
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:48 (two months ago) link
Ryan Adams: Whiskeytown stuff/Heartbreaker > Gold
― Charlie Hair (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:00 (two months ago) link
Jazmine Sullivan's Love Me Back > the two far more enthusiastically reviewed projects after that (which are still very good)
Paramore's self-titled > the last two albums
Kacey Musgraves' Same Trailer Different Park > Golden Hour
broadly true with Taylor Swift's early stuff vs. later stuff
― some dude, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:13 (two months ago) link
I'd say Titanic Rising, but that one is also amazing. But yeah
― imago, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:14 (two months ago) link
Leonard Cohen, no-one saw Various Positions for the masterpiece it was and went bananas (DYSWIDT?) for the markedly inferior I'm Your Man.
― bored by endless ecstasy (anagram), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:15 (two months ago) link
L'Rain absolutely too yeah, with the bonus round of her actually-great 3rd album getting a muted reaction again
― imago, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:17 (two months ago) link
"One Day It'll All Make Sense" reviews were penance for missing "Resurrection"
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:19 (two months ago) link
The thing is--these usually become apparent over time--like everyone knows Let It Be is better than Don't Tell a Soul now, etc. However I don't think the acclaim for "I'm Your Man" had anything to do with critics realizing they missed ""Various Positions." People are still missing that one for the most part.
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:22 (two months ago) link
speakerboxxx/the love below
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:22 (two months ago) link
ha I was going to say Stankonia.
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:25 (two months ago) link
Various Positions is a warm-up for IYM; he's bidding farewell to an old manner while not quite sure how he wants the new one to sound.
― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:27 (two months ago) link
xp yeah but speakerboxxx/the love below won the grammy and came 1st in pazz & jop despite being markedly inferior to both stankonia and aquemini
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:40 (two months ago) link
I have felt this way about every Bill Callahan record since Sometimes I Wish We Were An Eagle. It seemed like the NPR crowd caught on just when he was settling into a comfortable rut
― Paul Ponzi, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:49 (two months ago) link
i've felt like this about all the Flaming Lips albums after a certain point
― omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:58 (two months ago) link
Flaming Lips and Mercury Rev
― Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:00 (two months ago) link
I do like Deserters Songs but its not as great as the previous ones. And Flaming Lips were better before The Soft Bulletin (and I liked that)
― Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:02 (two months ago) link
xxxxpost But Stankonia topped Pazz & Jop so it was not ignored by the critical ecosystem
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:04 (two months ago) link
yeah but stankonia was good!
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:05 (two months ago) link
it's ok
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:07 (two months ago) link
Speakerboxxx/The Love Below is a prime example of an act being so critically beloved that a weak work is given the extreme benefit of the doubt.
― omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 20:07 (two months ago) link
Tigermilk warranted all the hype that IYFS & TBWTAS received (due to label deals & better distribution).
― Mrs. Ippei (Steve Shasta), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:10 (two months ago) link
i remember loving ATLiens in 1996 but everyone went nuts for Aquemini. maybe they are just both good. but i do remember thinking hey whatabout ATLiens that album was awesome...oh whatevernevermind.
― scott seward, Friday, 27 September 2024 20:44 (two months ago) link
Atomizer > Songs About Fucking
― Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume (unperson), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:51 (two months ago) link
I remember when The Source took back its 5 Mic review of Aquemini, saying it didn't deserve the top score.
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:52 (two months ago) link
I’m not a music critic but I would guess this is sort of related to “the first one you heard is the best”
― brimstead, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:08 (two months ago) link
cut copy (1st album >>> 2nd album)
― brimstead, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:09 (two months ago) link
“Bright Like Neon Love received widespread acclaim from critics.”lol ok nevermind
― brimstead, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:10 (two months ago) link
I don't think that's a terrible example. "Widespread acclaim from critics" is boilerplate Wikipedia language. Bright Like Neon Love got generally good reviews from the publications that bothered to review it, but Metacritic shows only 9 reviews compared to 17 for In Ghost Colours. Pitchfork didn't even review BLNL, for instance.
― jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:39 (two months ago) link
Which reminds me (I guess because Australia):
Tame Impala, Innerspeaker > Lonerism
― jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:44 (two months ago) link
moses sumney - grae, praised to death over the superior prior record, aromanticism
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 21:58 (two months ago) link
No one will agree, and one's an EP and the other a double, but I think Zen Arcade is wildly overrated (with a handful of great songs) because of critics late on Metal Circus. This happens all the time with filmmakers.
― clemenza, Friday, 27 September 2024 22:02 (two months ago) link
I sort of get the desire to include Revolver, in that the follow-up was instantly canonized as earth-shaking masterpiece among critical and fans alike, while Revolver (which was already doing so many of the same exciting things) was not. Especially in the US it's never had anything close to the pop-culture footprint of SPLHCB, or Rubber Soul for that matter. (See also: the Beatles Anthology doc, which devotes more time to the band's trips to Tokyo and the Philippines in this period.)
But it wasn't exactly ignored by critics, as the quotes prove. It's just that for the next one the praise went up to the megaton range. I'd say it doesn't fit.
― the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 10:44 (two months ago) link
Yes, I think it's very US-centric to think that Revolver was somehow under appreciated but then was Pepper the first Beatles album released in the US with its tracklisting intact?
― pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 11:01 (two months ago) link
Yes.
― the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 11:48 (two months ago) link
xpost - Well it doesn't really MATTER, technically. But I think ILX is one place where many people are professional, part-time or hobbyist critics/bloggers etc. And some times its interesting to talk about how sausages get made, y'know?― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:15 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglinkhow sausage parties get made― sarahel, Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:16 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:15 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink
how sausage parties get made
― sarahel, Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:16 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 12:02 (two months ago) link
yves tumor heaven to a tortured mind
― ivy., Tuesday, 1 October 2024 13:14 (two months ago) link
There's a couple examples on the Pitchfork list today. Both Chief Keef and Bladee was made BNM this year, but it's 4NEM and Crest that made the list.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 14:45 (two months ago) link
i feel like 4nem is the opposite, a mid-tier album in his discography released after a swelling of good will for the artist that was overly praised because it was the first one he dropped in a while with focus, pr push, a lead single, etc.
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 14:58 (two months ago) link
Burial got better when he realized his stuff worked better in single/EP format instead of albums
― brimstead, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 14:59 (two months ago) link
alabaster deplume, gold
― Aglet, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:33 (two months ago) link
^^ good one!
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:34 (two months ago) link
As per Then Play Long's review of 2 Unlimited's Real Things, it was a relative critical hit compared to No Limits
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:37 (two months ago) link
Also ha 10,000 gecs is the first time I've found gecs any good
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:41 (two months ago) link
attention before that. I’m struggling to think of a dance artist whose first album was unjustly ignored and second album over-praised.
― Tim F, Monday, 30 September 2024 18:07 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
Not overpraised as such, but Death in Vegas' Contino Sessions was one of the big UK critical favourites of 99 and that wasn't true of Dead Elvis in 97, when really they're similar in quality
Speaking of 99 albums that may have been overpraised, what about...Shack - Waterpistol > H.M.S. Fable
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:45 (two months ago) link
my problem with Burial in 2024 is that it's all gotten increasingly cheesier and sentimental to the point it's a bit laughable, the praise makes less sense to me with each release
― boxedjoy, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 17:27 (two months ago) link
The latest Burial release is my favourite thing he'd done in years, while probably one of the least distinctive. Was it inevitable he'd eventually make a pretty straight hardcore record at some point? Having run out of ways to do anything around that but not actually that? Like it was probably on the cards since he first heard Sweet Harmony as a kid.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 17:33 (two months ago) link
Burial will always remain beyond reproach for me based on all of his early work and a fair bit of the later work. It seems I'm the one of few people who rates Antidawn very highly, but nothing after that has quite stuck for me, even when my initial impressions have been positive. Phoneglow, Streetlands and Dreamfear are great examples: I really liked all of them, but every time I felt myself hovering over the button to add them to my cart, I thought about the price + shipping, and ultimately couldn't bring myself to actually buy them. That would have been unthinkable behavior for me for everything up to Chemz / Dolphinz.
Sorry for the Burial derail, I don't need much encouragement. He's still one of my favorite artists ever
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 18:24 (two months ago) link
I have to think a lot of the raves for mid-00s UGK and Three 6 Mafia projects was making up for critics ignoring their 90s output.
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 18:55 (two months ago) link
also see Fishscale
― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 18:56 (two months ago) link
The acclaim for Fishscale -- an album I'll still stan for -- reminded me that I'd missed the two albums after Supreme Clientele, so I'm grateful.
― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:02 (two months ago) link
Were Stone Temple Pilots an example of this? I've never heard those first two LPs.
Wikipedia suggests early reviews for Appetite for Destruction were nothing much (despite its belated P&J appearance), which wasn't the case with the Use Your Illusions.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:04 (two months ago) link
Did Tiny Music got critical acclaim? If so, I think it might be more a case of the band changing up their sound to something that happened to be more critic-friendly (from post-grunge to neo-glam).
― the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:12 (two months ago) link
(but perhaps a bit of "this shift actually started on the last album, but we sorta didn't notice that because we judged THAT one based on the FIRST album)
― the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:13 (two months ago) link
I was thinking Purple getting more critical love/attention on release than Core
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:18 (two months ago) link
It was impossible to hear Waterpistol at the time
― Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:33 (two months ago) link
Wouldn't that make it a perfect example of 'finding it too late'?
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:36 (two months ago) link
Through no fault of their own ofc
till feel like the reception of NR is overcompensating (less than for the Love in Exile collab though)
― dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:51 (two months ago) link
It earns a LOT of praise, dunno how much would be too much.
― dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:52 (two months ago) link
Premise of this thread is just another, "How dare noobs like something more than I did."
― dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:54 (two months ago) link
The thing is--these usually become apparent over time--like everyone knows Let It Be is better than Don't Tell a Soul now, etc.
― dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:59 (two months ago) link
in hindsight, the goodwill generated by dow's first post caused me to overreact to his second, third, and fourth posts
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 21:31 (two months ago) link
Uh-oh, sorry, the (misread?) Love In Exile comment just hit me rong. But I still think Keyes is right about how gradual the re-evaluation can be, and I for one still gradually go back and forth on some vintage works even now (Sgt. Pepper's for inst).
― dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 21:54 (two months ago) link
no fear, was making a dumb joke
― hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:10 (two months ago) link
the weeknd 'dawn FM' (which made the pitchfork half-decade top 50) is a random but good one -- total criticbait in that it's a concept album made in conjunction w/ an underground auteur (0PN) who the critical community had been championing as cutting edge for years prior
in reality, it offers far fewer great songs than his previous three albums, especially the two immediately before it, all of which were largely ignored or reviled by critics. to boot, the album was also probably his first flop, or at least the likely signal of the end of his imperial phase. so it's an even weirder and more specific case of the critical community rallying behind an A list pop album at the exact time that the pop star's fans had the opposite reaction. in this case i don't really think there's a good reason for it, they just fell for the hooked worm. pitchfork put 'after hours' into that box of albums that gets a 7.9 but no whiff of institutional support -- someone i follow on twitter once called this "the coward's BNM" -- and would've been a far better album to champion
― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:11 (two months ago) link
― Murgatroid, Friday, September 27, 2024 1:50 PM (four days ago)
the 6.5 for 'i like it when you sleep' era (ILM maybe the only place where music critics were passionately arguing against the years long consensus that the 1975 were annoying and frivolous) slowly morphing into the "love it if we made it" as defining trump presidency anthem + 8.5 BNM for 'brief inquiry' era is definitely a prime example of watching this phenomenon happen in real time
― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:16 (two months ago) link
i also just need to register my disagreement w/ MJ lenderman being the example used in the OP. aside from the fact that lenderman was covered pretty heavily for a new solo indie rock guy in the 2020s, there's a pretty big difference in production quality and even songwriting concision on the new album to the point that i think people -- like me -- who prefer slicker production and pop oriented songwriting are going to respond differently to the decidedly more lo-fi and ramshackle album that preceded it. albums where the artist attempts to broaden their fanbase in a noticeable way & then succeeds make for more slippery inclusions into this canon
― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:22 (two months ago) link
no fear, was making a dumb joke― hott ogo (voodoo chili)
― hott ogo (voodoo chili)
― dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:55 (two months ago) link
as the provider of the example in the OP, i'll take this lull as an opportunity to post my follow-up comment in the Lenderman thread:
xxpost, i don't mean that as a shot at the greater music critic ecosystem or the critics themselves, btw. many people caught onto Boat Songs not long after it was released, it's just that so many people work for places that won't run a review 3 months after release date. people got to do year-end stories and blurbs for Top Whatever lists, but for many folks, this is really the first chance they've gotten to praise Jake and his music, so it's coming in hot.
also wanna say J0rdan's last post is a fair point and good perspective for me to hear.
― alpine static, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 02:44 (two months ago) link
Pitchfork placed "God Save the Animals" at #23 of the best albums since 2020 so maybe Alex G fits this premise.
― business, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 03:22 (two months ago) link
Jazmine Sullivan's Love Me Back > the two far more enthusiastically reviewed projects after that (which are still very good)― some dude
― some dude
seconded!!
― +subtle (gaudio), Wednesday, 2 October 2024 04:35 (two months ago) link
I don’t know that reality show is a good example of that unless you mean specifically just my one enthusiastic review of it in pitchfork, which felt very lonely at the time and was knocked down from my suggested BNM
the one after it, definitely
― ok (D-40), Wednesday, 2 October 2024 21:40 (two months ago) link
Grouper comes to mind, not that I find any of her stuff bad.
― Western® with Bacon Flavor, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 22:00 (two months ago) link
Kurt Vile also
Oh my fucking god. MLIR -> Parklife. Maybe the all-time winner of this
― imago, Thursday, 24 October 2024 17:50 (one month ago) link
yeah that's true, not sure which is the better LP though
― John Backflip (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 24 October 2024 17:51 (one month ago) link
Emperor is a classic case: “In The Nightside Eclipse” was largely ignored by the metal press when it came out in 1994 because few had Norway on the radar, but it became a huge classic in the scene.
So when the band got back together three years later after the whole arson/murder media circus and did “Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk”(which basically continued the sound of the ITNE), the press praised it to high heaven even though it isn’t half as good as the debut.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 24 October 2024 20:04 (one month ago) link
I saw Emperor and my mind went to Emperor Tomato Ketchup. Which is actually the only Stereolab album I ever listen to anymore, but I know some feel strongly that it (and its successors) mark a drop-off from the more brusque 1992-94 stuff though it and D&L are their most crossover/canon-friendly records.
Wasn't Run-D.M.C.'s King of Rock (which I really like) praised to high heavens by those who ignored the debut? Or is that a bit of a myth.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Friday, 25 October 2024 05:33 (one month ago) link
Again, I do actually prefer the second album here, but what about Mustt Mustt > Night Song
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Friday, 25 October 2024 05:49 (one month ago) link
Mars Audiac Quintet is an amazing recent discovery and I honestly can't square that with my memory of what came next, but maybe I need to give it all another go before I consign myself to the Mercury Rev 'early noisy stuff good, rest dreck' bin for Stereolab too
― imago, Friday, 25 October 2024 06:27 (one month ago) link
I remember the Run-DMC debut getting reviewed in Rolling Stone and thinking "that sounds interesting, but I can't imagine what it sounds like" and so I was totally primed when the video for "King of Rock" came out -- so I think it was more an issue of the second record getting mainstream promotion, the critical momentum already in place.
― Theracane Gratifaction (bendy), Friday, 25 October 2024 14:09 (one month ago) link