Little Help...(A chick-music primer_

The Mirah's a good idea. You could do some ditto with Little Wings, Cat Power, Nick Drake, Belle and Sebastian, Julie Doiron, Hayden, Elliott Smith, the Bees... maybe try out Mojave 3.

- i. Only play music you both loathe, then you can agree.

- ii. Embrace yr inner morbid chick!

C'mon guys. It was written a little tongue in cheek. And pre-caffeine. I'm not an asshole boyfriend...honest

I will say that my wife really enjoys live music if the musicians put on a good show or play the shit out of their instruments, regardless of how unlistenable the music would be to her at home on a record. So be a gentleman and take her out.

Blackalicious
Johnny Cash's 90ies records
Nick Cave's Boatman's Call
Quannum/SoleSides
Future 3

NB only if you stay away from Wilco at the wedding reception. Stick with Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep.

Ha, this passage could have been written by me! Brilliant! My gal still likes all those artists you mentioned, although she does like some good stuff, too. Mazzy Star is one you should try.

I think I used to think more along the lines you are thinking about providing a musical makeover. I still have a desire to at least try to get people I am close to interested in the music I love, but I move more slowly than I used to.

Actually I'm pretty lucky: I foolishly played Fairouz, Oum Kalthoum, Riad el Sounbatti (oud solo), and some Qur'anic recitation for the person I am now dating. It was ostensibly her request to hear "some of that Arabic music you listen to," but I think I went overboard. But she said she liked it all, and wasn't cringing. It wasn't a good idea though because I kept slipping away from the conversation and focusing on the music.

Anyway, she likes Frank Sinatra and nu-soul, and seems to appreciate some Latin music, so I'm pretty comfortable with that, though I admit I would like to get her to listen to olde soul a little more.

I am totally keen on knowledge being worn lightly, whatever the gender.

How about Beth Orton? Neko Case? Joy Division?

My only thought while reading the opening question was that it strongly reminded me of A Confederacy of Dunces.

Also, the line "Are you absorbing your education, baby?"=classic.

That having been said, I have given up on saying, "Hey, here, listen to this," which is always (for her) a clue that what I'm about to play is irredeemably crap. Subtlety is the key, man! Without it, she would never be able to bust the entire lyrics from BDP's "Illegal Business" when someone somewhere drops a hat.

I think the internet has changed this, though, in that anyone with any interest can find some realm where that interest is all-important, allowing them to be snobby and dismissive toward everyone else. Before that I think a lot of people felt vaguely apologetic about liking things other people didn't, and actually preferred to make this as not-big of a deal as possible. Their enthusiasm tended to be a bit more charming and palatable than the fiercer, more hardened stuff you find in online groups of serious devotees.

Also maybe: Laika, the Delgados, American Analog Set.

Like other people have said, if I happen to have something on and she likes it, great (this has happened with Blackalicious, DJ Shadow, Astrobotnia, Saul Williams, etc.), and if not then no big deal, you can't force it.

But I always was a fucking pretentious girl who tried to read and listen to the best - since I was ten. I don't feel that proud of it! I made stupid mistakes like completely abandoning rock music when I was about 18 because I thought electronic music was more important, and even now I find my own over-developed musical taste suspicious. I feel like, I'm the kind of girl you're talking about, but - it's as important as what colour shoes I wear. Sorry about this but I just feel uncomfortable with what you said!

I'm not necessarily saying that there are more girls than boys with their own independent music taste. But I don't think there's really that much difference. It's true that a lot more boys come to this forum - but then it's not very welcoming to women, because there are so many boys, because a lot of the threads have sexist jokes on them, because - I mean, I'm not shy as a feminist, but I've been made extremely timorous about making feminist remarks on these forums by the ridicule and lack of support they receive. And that reflects something deep about the overall atmosphere, you know - quite often the tone is really 'Loaded'. In general, flippant wit is what's most respected in music criticism (though not, thank God, in all the arts) and women are trained to be compassionate and have 'deep' feelings, so are they really going to be comfortable with that?

I think there's a big difference between being an aesthete who has a big record collection and is comfortable in the world of music criticism as it exists today, and being a genuine music fan. That's what I'd judge my girlfriends' taste on, if anything - do they really love what they say they do? Are they honest? Not whether what they love is 'good,' or how much they like. Because like Chuck Eddy said, and I thought this was so wise, is there really such a thing as 'taste'? Do you really know that what you like is a 'natural' response, internal to you alone - I mean, do you really believe that's true?

Are there any girls here who are cooler than their boyfriends? All my life I've been hearing men complain that their gf's tastes were rub, and all too often when I've questioned a girl about an interesting band that came up in conversation, she's said "Oh, my boyfriend turned me on to that." It's disappointing.

How am I being sexist here? I asked whether any of the ILX women were cooler than their boyfriends. It's an innocent question, and one I'm genuinely interested in because in my experience, 80 percent of the music geeks I've known have been men, and it's usually been the men who were more knowledgeable/adventurous.

I just mean that I wish more women would be proactive about discovering music and cultivating/refining/expanding their tastes, rather than waiting around for someone to spoonfeed them. It's GREAT to see chixor like Geeta and Nonstop Jen and Rosemary show off their knowledge. I want that sort of thing to become the norm.

Again, I don't see how this is sexist. I'm not saying that women are incapable of appreciating music... I'm not saying that AT ALL. It's just that for a long time it's been the norm for the man to be obsessed with trivia and history and statistics and the general aesthetics-of-rock, while the woman sighs condescendingly and says "Oh, he's such a boy." I feel lonely sometimes and I WANT more chix to be as nutso about this stuff as I am.

It all comes down to how much of male/female behaviour is "natural" and how much is inflicted by gender roles: personaly, I would love a world with more female music geeks, even tho the "emotional" approach described earlier is IMO just as valid (maybe more), and certainly a lot more healthy, regardless of gender (come to think of it, I'd just like a world with more female geeks, period- still can't get that girl I spotted reading a Wolverine comic out of my head two months later...)

Well, I have pretty rubbish taste in music and I'm not about to deny that or claim that I know much about it, but if it helps I've never been out with anyone with similar musical tastes [*] and I scared at least the last one off by my indignation at his Muse and Coldplay CDs. I tried not to complain about his music and I never liked playing my own stuff because I knew he'd hate it and I'd be worrying about it, but still. Don't worry, though, he wasn't exactly henpecked, he got his own back by going on about my ignorance in plenty of other areas.

[* Yep, I'm one of those filthy indieists, and I think my aura - or my lack of cool haircut, dress sense or indie skinniness - repels indie guys. I got together with someone at ATP and thought, y'know, I must finally be with someone who knew who Yo La Tengo were, but no, back at his chalet he's all "oh, I didn't know who any of these bands were, I'm just here with my housemate" and puts on a chillout compilation. Sigh. On the other hand, then I remember that they probably avoid me because my t-shirt isn't cool enough and I think of all the "I can't believe you don't own x and you still think y is good!" I'd have to put up with if they were desperate enough to bother.]

Not so relevant, I suppose. Sorry. This thread reminds me that I bought The Sex Revolts two years ago and still haven't read it yet, so I think I'll look for it now, anyway.

My girlfriend hates the Danielson Famile too. Could it be the frightening squeals? hmm...

Re the cool-chicks question, I got myself into music. Of my social group at school I was the one who bought MM every week, listened to Peelie with my notepad out, went to see the New FADs or the Telescopes or whoever was playing (on my own most weeks), made mix tapes for my mates, dj-ed at parties. I was over the bloody moon when I came to Manchester to go to uni and found loads of other people just as obsessive as me, and so many genres to choose from! I met my bf when I auditioned for his band, and music brought us together even though we hardly liked any of the same things and we still don't - we admired each other's passion.

To try and take a step back though, (& stop talking about myself for a second-ouch) I've met a lot more guys than girls who were deep into it. I know 12 guys who get paid to DJ and 1 woman. I don't know why.

If anyone is interested and has a shop nearby that sells cassettes with this sort of stuff, I would recommend asking for a contemporary mix of some sort and maybe some classics, plus whatever else the shopkeeper recommends, assuming they can be bothered with making suggestions. I happened to get lucky and run into a Palestinian music geek.

I owe everyone a Fairouz tape. Sorry.))

Therefore, I would advise that you play the music you like whenever possible - but not when it's so unwelcome as to cause tension as classic conditioning is a very real thing. Play the same stuff for a while and then give it a break, play some quite different stuff for a while, then when you start playing the first lot of stuff again it will be familiar and more welcome.

At the same time you should attempt to re-educate yourself in her musical taste. All popular music is good, else no-one would like it. Therefore it is possible for you to find some good and enjoyment in any music, including heavily morbid girl favourites.

Tongue in cheek sexistness reinforces sexistness and legitimises behaviour that would otherwise be unacceptable. Of course it is a passport to the old-boys-club and therefore a valuable skill for any young man. Or woman who wants to play with the boys.

...while with women it's generally an emotional thing; that paints a bit of a twisted picture ... women as airheads) Since when did emotional = airhead? I would have thought following emotions was a most sincere and un-airhead like thing to do. Surely airheads are superficial, empty and out of touch with their emotions, caring only about appearance and acceptance?

Gross generalisation coming up:
I would have thought the reason less girls get all obsessive about music would be the same reason that less girls get obsessive about most things - they've usually got more responisbilities and wider interests than guys.

Analysis that should not be interpreted as an attack coming up:
Jody, I think your questions should have been Are there any girls here who I would think are cooler than their boyfriends? rather than Are there any girls here who are cooler than their boyfriends?. You seem to be so male orientated and so value (predominatly) male traits over (predominantly) female traits.

I think most girls would consider themselves equally cool or more cool than their boyfriends, but you probably wouldn't consider them so.

It's not all it's cracked up to be. It's great until you date the guy who belittles your taste nonstop and calls you an idiot and an uneducated pleb for not liking the Magnetic Fields or something...

I'm cooler than any of my boyfriends!

I think Ally is cooler than her boyfriends too.

Since when did emotional = airhead? I would have thought following emotions was a most sincere and un-airhead like thing to do. Surely airheads are superficial, empty and out of touch with their emotions, caring only about appearance and acceptance?

An exclusively emotional relationship with music means no intelectual relationship with music; I'm not saying that women who have an emotional relationship with music are airheads, I'm saying that stating that women can only have an emotional relationship with music and not an intelectual one also portrays them as airheads.

i like giving things to people, its one of my weaknesses! (the other is receiving things!)

Anyway, I think the most intriguing arguments I've heard for the gender difference tend to revolve around how men and women see socialization and solitude differently. One theory suggested that men seek out solitary experiences because, for them, social situations are more anxiety-provoking -- "alpha male" business and all that. I do think there is definite truth to the idea that there is a difference -- that more women than men find their defining musical experiences to be social/communal, rather than solitary -- but I think to make too much of it would probably be a mistake.

Finally, on the topic of "re-education", of course seeking to overtly remake someone else in your own musical image is a mistake. On the other hand, we all want to be recognized and validated, and to paint men's mixtape-giving and anxious watching as an attempt at controlling their partners is, I think, misguided. When I made tapes and brought over MP3s for my ex, I picked out things I thought she would like, and things she had requested, but often tried to throw in things I hadn't made up my mind about. I never "expected" her to like every band I liked -- not by a long shot -- but I can't deny that I really valued the fact that we seemed receptive to a lot of the same musical ideas: when one loves something, one wants to share it. I certainly wouldn't have been offended if she, a painter, had wanted to consciously expose me to visual artists with whom I was unfamiliar, or encourage me to form new relationships with those I'd already seen, but only examined on a superficial level. Actually, I probably would've loved it.

"shallow" should've been "obsessive", obviously

Blimey Matos I wasn't meaning your mixtape. Tho I think you and I discussed the person I was speaking of at Chuck Eddy's thing that night.

I like mixtapes! Just that if I get a mixtape and I hate it, I will tell you "Oh I wasn't so fond of this one" the proper response shouldn't be "That is because you don't understand music". That was my point.

It's strange, this thread and the feminism/female bands thread get started within a few days of each other, it's lik epeople are trying to set off the chiXors.

The one album I have she went nuts over is John Cale's Fragements of a Rainy Season but hell its one of the great albums ever, so who wouldn't? She also likes the Manics.

But, y'know, I think it would be dead dull to date someone with the same tastes and interests as me -- there'd be nothing to learn and share. I think the big thing is to be open minded and if you care for her, try to see what she appreciates in the music she luvs, if only to bring yourself closer to her.

,,,i am about to reprogram trife!

I agree that this is *so* the better way to do it. There are huge differences between mine and my boyfriend's taste, but I negotiate that by buying/copying him stuff that *my* understanding of *his* tastes would suggest he will like. The fact that I'd be unlikely to buy myself a Disco Kandi comp. hasn't precluded me from buying one for him. This goes beyond being a gender issue (although it's that too); it's also a simple respect issue.

http://www.an-irrational-domain.net/images/band83-86/band83world2.JPG

"Tongue in cheek sexistness reinforces sexistness and legitimises behaviour that would otherwise be unacceptable. Of course it is a passport to the old-boys-club and therefore a valuable skill for any young man. Or woman who wants to play with the boys."
The issues here are SO much more complicated than you think. Historically it has always been "women who play with the boys" who broaden the range of possibility for those that follow. The project of creating public dialogue on contraversial issues is always going to be MESSY. If you want ideological purity, try setting up some kind of women-only utopian community, although having seen in my youth quite a few failed efforts in this direction, I think you're in for an uphill battle even in safe women-only segregated areas. As for what goes on in the actual world, some women will continue to "play with the boys". It will be frustrating at times (maybe most of the time), but by doing so they will create new possibility for women in general.

*sob*

at which point i realised i did too

then we watched buffy except t fell asleep like 43 seconds after the themetune ended, even tho she wz the one arguing we stay up for it (cz i'd already seen it the day b4)

and what a cunt he turned out to be in the end.

so the moral of the story is, if your parter has shite taste in music, IT MEANS THAT THEY ARE EVIL. DUMP THEM NOW. you'll be much happier in the long run.

(p.s. coldplay ARE boring. i sat through that entire jools holland to see the datsuns, and was rewarded by graham coxon swearing his head off on telly. hooray!)

we only watched one song really, the first one: we switched over to nash bridges during the datsuns

they changed the themetune to nash bridges = the end of musical civilisation as we know, the new one sounds like the bodyform ad, and cheech wz pretending that he and nash were a gay couple who were also private detectives, in order to whip up trade in the castro = A CLASSIC!!

but it is always a classic

When all the graduates came home for Christmas someone threw a party. When I arrived, to my shock I discovered five girls with my former haircut and about a dozen more who had become turned on to the Cure, the Smiths and New Order by their campus boyfriends. D'oh!

So, it's like this. Your suggestions are welcome. Help us both stay in the same room when the stereo is on. My thoughts were maybe play him some early Hole, or The Carrie Nations, or Melt-Banana. And thank you, one and all.