Career-Defining Records Whose Greatness Can Be Attributed to Svengali Producer-Types

I just re-read this article on the making of Tricky’s Maxinquaye and it completely explains why the rest of his career was such a train wreck: Tricky was stoned out of his gourd for the duration and left all of the work and decision-making to Mark Saunders, the producer/engineer Island assigned to him (who unless I’m mistaken, promptly never worked with Tricky again).

What are other examples where someone other than the artist is responsible for the artistic success of the record?

Let’s not bother with the gazillion nobodies who recorded singles with Phil Spector-types.

I can kick things off, but with an item that doesn’t quite fit:

I Want You by Marvin Gaye is maybe more of an honorable mention here, as even tho it was written and produced by Leon Ware, I do think Gaye’s vocal arrangements and lyrics are essential to its success. But Ware was def. the creative force on the record and Gaye was likely exhausted.

"Screamadelica"

Rachel Stevens, “Come and Get It” (Richard X)

The Idiot and Lust for Life

Bat Out of Hell

(Obviously Iggy and Meat Loaf bring a lot to these records but they wouldn't have happened without Bowie and Steinman, respectively.)

Diana Ross - Diana. Rebooted her career and was pretty much put together by the Chic production team, although she did demand a remix to foreground her vocals so you could hardly call her a puppet.

Nevermind?

Le Noise

It didn't define their career - in fact they pretty much went the opposite direction afterwards - but Todd Rundgren on War Babies by Hall and Oates.

It pains me to write this, but Double Negative and Hey What

There are quite a few hip hop artists who have floundered after losing production from the greats--

Jeru the Damaja, Group Home, Noreaga (solo), Raekwon, Freeway

Didn't RZA joke in an interview once that GZA didn't hear Liquid Swords until it was finished?

It pains me to write this, but Double Negative and Hey What

This why I'm not a big a fan of these as everyone else seems to be

I haven't heard those Low records, but "veteran band gets rejuvenating help from a younger producer" is maybe a different category?

Elvis going back to Memphis and working with then hit maker Chips Moman on “From Elvis in Memphis” would I think apply.

I would not say Nevermind. Sure, it bears the producer's touch but I would't credit that for it's artistic success. I think it would be a better album with a different producer.

Let's Dance would be an entirely different album without Nile Rodgers.

I haven't heard those Low records, but "veteran band gets rejuvenating help from a younger producer" is maybe a different category?

they're great albums where a significant part of the greatness is letting burton totally transform their sound. the songwriting is still excellent (it's low after all) but they wouldn't be total classics if they didn't let burton go wild with sound design

Let's Dance is a good one, see also Bowie's Low

ZZ Top - Eliminator
Linden Hudson isn’t a svengali, but it would have been a totally different album without him

Prefab Sprout / Steve McQueen

^^ I have always wondered how much better Protest Songs would have been if it also had the Dolby magic.

The Lexicon of Love?

This thread is going to become a ZTT thread by default, huh?

maybe Bow Wow Wow? def not the Sex Pistols.

Neither Dolby nor Horn was the primary creative force of those records.

It didn't define their career - in fact they pretty much went the opposite direction afterwards - but Todd Rundgren on War Babies by Hall and Oates.

Was thinking about Rundgren producing We're An American Band for Grand Funk Railroad, and that song is the thing most people remember them for now, but they were selling out arenas long before they worked with him and the album doesn't sound much different from the rest of their catalog.

xp Unlike, say, Welcome to the Pleasuredome and Slave to the Rhythm (arguable as "career defining").

Bowie said many times he handed the thing to Rodgers, played no instruments, etc. Later he passive-aggressively blamed Rodgers for creating these expectations.

Career-defining, dunno, but Big Star's "Third" was more or less completed by Jim Dickinson. Dickinson also saved the Replacements' "Pleased to Meet Me."

Lindsey Buckingham, as producer, saved "Tango in the Night," because Stevie and Mick were reportedly so messed up.

it doesn't really fit the arc of an established artist who had some sorta mid period renaissance w/ a new collaborator but you'd hardly call alexander o'neal a nobody and i think it's clear that the classic status of 'hearsay' is attributable to jimmy jam & terry lewis

this is stretching the definition of the thread technically speaking but 'mariah - the emancipation of mimi' and her work w/ jermaine dupri gets pretty damn close. that album has other producers so it doesn't really fit but even if you shave it down to just "we belong together", "shake it off" & "don't forget about us" that is a career defining album period for a legacy artist that is attributable to getting in the studio w/ one certain producer

also i don't wanna say that the creative & commercial success of off the wall/thriller/bad is solely attributable to quincy jones because of course there was a mutual genius thing happening there but the way michael's career -- and the entire course of pop music -- is defined by his relationship w/ one producer feels like a big one to me

justin timberlake - futuresex/lovesounds + nelly furtado - loose

the mystique has dissipated over time, and the sequel (+ the sequel's sequel) probably didn't help, but justin had been working heavily w/ the neptunes at the end of nysync and then had 3 huge hits off a debut album primarily produced by them. but he made a career defining decision to make a sprawling concept album -- his one stab at a legendary pop statement full-length -- just w/ timbaland and danja and hit the bullseye at a level that is still pretty rare to see

then of course nelly furtado was basically written off as pop ephemera until crossing paths w/ timbaland around the same time. might be hard to find many more singularly "career defining" mid-period pop albums than 'loose'. and now you have tate mcrae basically stealing those drum sounds on all her hits lol

Thriller definitely came to mind but it's true it's really just one in a troika that all had QJ's guiding touch

The best in men's clothing
Call Paul's Boutique, ask for Janice
The number is, ah, 718-498-1043
That's Paul's Boutique, and they're in Brooklyn

i bet the miseducation of lauryn hill is one of these but i don't know who the mastermind is.

first two libertines albums were notable for mick jones's production and not much else.

yeezus was a let it be situation, where kanye handed over hours upon hours of garbage to producer rick rubin who had to assemble it himself.

future - DS2

coming off a classic sophomore slump album future's artistic and commercial renaissance was kicked off w/ the 'monster' mixtape featuring several beats from metro boomin. celebrated mixtapes w/ other atlanta producers (zaytoven, southside) followed, but the "mixtape future" run was crystallized w/ DS2, produced neeeeearly entirely by metro boomin. the partnership cemented future as one of the preeminent rappers of his era, still stands as some of the best rap music of that time, spawned like a handful of further no 1 albums between the two, and of course directly led to the rap beef of a generation

i don't think DS2 is attributable to a svengali type producer -- future is prob moreso the genius than metro, i think -- but there was something there that shifted noticeably and permanently w/ that connection

Paul’s Boutique is a completely even collaboration between the Beasties, Matt Dike, and the Dust Brothers

(or: every Beastie Boys record wholly reflects the main band lineup that worked on it. 3 + Kate on Cookie Puss, 3 + DJ Double R on Licensed To Ill, 3 + $ Mark on CYH, 3 + Mark + Bobo & al. on IC, 3 + AWOL on Aglio 3 + Mixmaster Mike on Nasty, 3 + an absence of Mario C on Boroughs, 3 + Mark + Fredo on Mix-Up.)

It seems clear that MJ's records were his vision, however much he needed QJ to fulfill them.

didn’t someone else besides Goldie do a bunch of the programming on Timeless or something?

Rob playford

i mean if we're talking janet+"the minneapolis sound", that seems like the obvious answer. i don't think janet would have caught as many ears without them.

Alexander O'Neal is a good example producer-artist symbiosis. Unlike Janet Jackson, he wasn't a writer, yet I'd argue Hearsay >> Control in my personal canon.

Tonight anyway.

If Todd Rundgren weren't involved with Skylarking, it likely would have been a lot more bloated and uneven, like Apples and Oranges.

Hours have passed, no mention of Joe Meek and Martin Hannett, but I guess it’s because it kinda goes without saying

I guess this might be a bit corny for ILM but Broken Social Scene’s breakthrough album would literally not be the hit that it was were it not for Dave Newfeld and his insane ideas and decisions, and the band is the first to admit this

Same with Gordon Raphael on those first two Strokes albums (tho the band would never admit this)

Paul’s Boutique is a completely even collaboration between the Beasties, Matt Dike, and the Dust Brothers

Also the exact opposite of a "career-defining record." I was alive in 1989. That shit flopped.

Whatever. It introduced them to their next audience.

College kids who hated LTI were suddenly into them.

I guess this might be a bit corny for ILM but Broken Social Scene’s breakthrough album would literally not be the hit that it was were it not for Dave Newfeld and his insane ideas and decisions, and the band is the first to admit this

Same with Gordon Raphael on those first two Strokes albums (tho the band would never admit this)

idk i love those albums but i've always had mixed feelings about the production - it's full of cool tricks, the real drums that sound like a drum machine is great etc. but it all sounds so small, i wish it had just a bit more muscle to it

they never did find anything else that worked better though, as much as i love comedown machine i'm not going to say the production is better

Regardless of how it did at the time Paul’s Boutique has been considered the classic ever since I can remember (and I was there when “Intergalactic” dropped) so it’s “career-defining” now

Kinda famously, Shania Twain.

High and Dry, Pyromania and Hysteria?

I was 23 when PB came out and it wasn't a "hit" but all the record store nerds I knew loved it

like I literally remember a friend urgently telling me how good it was

Check Your Head defined the career in that it established that they could and would do whatever they felt like from album to album (to EP to magazine to quadraphonic stadium tour to pseudonymous punk band)

Newfeld after the success of YFIIP has done a lot of other production work— off the top of my head, the first Los Campensinos! album— and to the best of my knowledge is still working hard! Prior to BSS he produced a locally beloved masterpiece by Mean Red Spiders called Stars & Sons, named after Dave’s studio (as is a BSS song)

Re: the Strokes, there are those who prefer The Modern Age EP’s production to that of Raphael’s production but I’m not her. The intentional tinniness of Raphael’s production/mix work is absolutely intrinsic to both those albums successes— I privately refer to the sound as ProTools Rock, which describes the sound and also is in deference to its landmark digital production process— and is as intractable from the Strokes studio sound as the cavernous Hannett sound is from Joy Division— note too that New Order would express frustration with Hannett’s lack of muscle in his production decisions and publicly say as such. Creating distinct sound worlds on studio albums that contrast the band’s live sound is a great decision imo!

yeah the modern age ep definitely doesn't sound better - it's just rougher and rawer but not in a particularly compelling way - slowing down "the modern age" on the album was absolutely the right move. the great thing about the strokes wasn't that they were a raw garage rock band, it was they had all these incredible tightly-wound pop songs that they played with utter precision

flamboyant goon tie included speaks the truth

Creating distinct sound worlds on studio albums that contrast the band’s live sound

This is my defence of Cheap Trick In Color.

There’s a moment on “Pacific (something)” (I forget the title but it’s an instrumental) off YFIIP where a crash cymbal is so flamboyantly side chained and every time I hear it I shiver with delight. Newfeld is great. I hope he works with BSS again

“Pacific Theme” at 2:28. Yummm. No crash until that moment. I guess it’s old hat now but I had never heard anything like it at the time

Ignoring the unfortunate loss of Derek Forbes, does Once Upon a Time come under Career-Defining Records Whose Badness Can Be Attributed to Svengali Producer-Types?

"Welcome To The Pleasuredome" perhaps?

Pleasuredome is a perfect example. Ditto A Secret Wish, which was produced by Stephen Lipson. There's a demo version of "P-Machinery" with David Sylvian on keyboards that has a peculiar reggae feel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBMD28rqGFk

It strikes me that "Dream Within a Dream" is almost literally 100% production. You can't imagine playing it on a piano because it's just the same note held for nine minutes, but it works as a song because it has a lot of variation. It's like a train ride that doesn't change speed or divert from the track, but it goes past industrial estates and fields and lakes and elevated highways and valleys and lakes and more industrial estates and elevated highways and trees, but they're different trees.

To a lesser extent The Human League's Dare, not so much because Martin Rushent was a tyrant, but because he was willing to force the band to actually knuckle down and do some work. There's a fascinating contemporary article here about the making of the record, which essentially involved planning the songs on paper and then programming them into a Roland MC8 and doing a lot of finessing with accents etc. Whereas later on the band seemed to stop caring until their career was on the skids, at which point they hired Jam and Lewis to do everything for them.

I'm typing in these control codes like a mutha. I can still format links! I haven't lost everything.

Interesting about Dare. I've been listening to it a lot lately.

I'm in two minds about the Rick Rubin / Johnny Cash American Recordings albums. On the one hand most of the songs are just Johnny Cash and a guitar, but on the other hand the decision to have minimalist production, and also the decision to record covers of songs you wouldn't normally associate with Johnny Cash, and do them straight, not as novelty jokes, was Rick Rubin's. Compare his latter-day output with the following, which is from the album Cash did immediately before American Recordings. It's conceptually similar but completely different at the same time, more twangy for want of a better word:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOQFNtlymto

This prompted me to look up Kylie Minogue's Fever, but it was a huge team effort, as was Light Years, with eleven credited producers. Seemingly every song was treated as a miniature standalone production. The fact that some songs don't have a writing credit for Minogue implies that she actually did co-write the songs she's credited for and that it wasn't a contractual obligation. Why did I think of Kylie Minogue? My assumption was that there was a huge change in her sound around the time of Fever, but on reflection there wasn't, and her albums are all big team efforts designed to support the individual genius of Kylie Minogue herself.

So she's basically Neil Armstrong. Highly competent, looks good in white, but has a large team of muscular dancers who lift her up during the choruses, which is relatively easy on the moon because the gravity is lower. And also the astronauts had special straps in case they couldn't reach the ladder. Because the lander's legs were designed to telescope a bit, but there was a risk that they might get stuck, or the lander might land on a slope, in which case Armstrong etc would have trouble reaching the bottom rung of the ladder NASA worm logo upper half painted Skylab numbers wrong propellant leak STS-4 Engle.

in a silent way

Cupid & Psyche '85

i am struggling with this beyond the usual suspects as it's all about the 'career defining' aspect.
yeah, every band that has worked with my fave producers (e.g david axelrod, adrian sherwood, danger mouse, bombsquad, scott harding, brendan lynch, ted macero etc) has resulted in a brilliant album, but 'career defining' ?
nah, not at all.

I’ve read that Maxinequaye article before and I think it’s self-serving bullshit. The next Tricky album was also good if not as, and it’s not like Saunders made a bunch of classics after.

Daphne & Celeste Save the World

Lou Reed's Transformer

I am pretty sure that tricky was a seasoned enough pot smoker to not be like, completely unable to function or whatever lol

Clipse?

does Tim Friese-Greene on Spirit of Eden count?

I think “time” and “money” are most responsible for that one

Owen Morris' last minute ground-up reconstruction of Definitely Maybe

Obv on ilx more than anywhere else it's up in the air if it's all that great but it did save their arses

What about All Directions? Though I know Masterpiece is the "it was nice of Whitfield to allow the Temptations appear on their own album" one

Does Parallel Lines count for this? I adore the first two Blondie albums, some days more than PL, and they could have kept making records like that for the rest of their career, but I think it took Mike Chapman and his multiple retakes to turn them into a hitmaking juggernaut. He certainly turned “Heart of Glass” into something huger than the thin demos.

Pyromania - Mutt Lange
Reign In Blood - Rick Rubin

Not sure if 'End of the Century' counts as a "Career-Defining Record" for The Ramones or not but it is definitely a notorious part of their discography.

I'm not that sure Reign in Blood would've sounded much different or had less success with any other (reasonably competent) producer tbh.

Never really considered Reign In Blood some sonic marvel or anything, anyway. A deservedly classic record, sure, but not exactly something you'd use to test new speakers or anything. What exactly was Rubin's contribution to that record, anyway? Does anybody know? I'd guess he helped the band streamline the songs a bit and cut some fat. iirc there were some needlessly long songs on Hell Awaits

Probably just his "just four guys in a room getting back to basics" approach. I just saw something from Billy Duffy of the Cult, about the recording of "Electric:"

The Cult guitarist Billy Duffy revealed what it was really like to work with producer Rick Rubin for their 1987 album "Electric."

The legendary rock band made significant success with their previous two albums, especially 1985's "Love," which gave them a huge commercial break. The next one, which was initially referred to as "Peace," saw them working with the same producer, Steve Brown. However, they ended up with an album that lacked punch, and the whole thing felt a little underwhelming. This was when they decided to seek Rick Rubin's help.

Appearing on the Rockonteurs with Gary Kemp and Guy Pratt podcast recently, Duffy admitted that they felt a little stuck after their second album, especially with a huge album behind them.

"We were trying to progress as a band, but we hadn't really," the guitarist offered (transcribed by Ultimate Guitar). "It was, like, one foot in each camp."

The next move was to try out this American producer who's done some incredible work with a few different names, including Slayer and the Beastie Boys. He continued:

"A long story short, we'd heard of Rick Rubin. We'd heard from a friend in Canada. He'd done the Beastie Boys' 'Cooky Puss,' which is basically 'Back in Black' riff with a beat."

"And we met Rick Rubin in New York, and the whole deal was, Rick was gonna just mix. He said, 'I'll remix your whole album, but you must let me record one song from the ground up.' That was the deal. So we said, 'Okay.' The record company weren't gonna let us re-record a super-expensive album again."

Going more into how the process went, Duffy explained how things shifted and they eventually reworked the whole thing, offering:

"So we get to New York, we rent all the gear, because it's one track, right? We didn't bring any guitars. Everything was rented — amps, drums, guitars. And then Rick says… Ostensibly, this is a mix with one fresh track. So he just says to me, 'Which track Do you, like, hate on the album the most?' Like 'Which one really disappoints you.'"

"And I remember, I think it was this on 'Peace Dog,' it's like, 'I don't like this, it's too long. And he goes, 'Right, we'll start on that one.' And we started with that Rick Rubin methodology, which he's proven, you know, the Rick thing."

"I believe we were the first band he ever produced that had an organic drum kit, you know. And we went to Electric Ladyland, we set up in the main room, and we did multiple old-school takes."

One odd thing about Rick Rubin is that he's not a musician. Despite that, the man was more than capable of delivering powerful-sounding albums. But since Rubin wasn't a musician himself, Duffy revealed that he had some reliable people with him to make the magic happen.

"He did hire Andy Wallace to be the engineer," Billy said. "Rick's always used great engineers. He's not stupid. And George Drakoulias was there all the time. Rick and George were like a team. I mean, I would say Rick was the senior partner, but George and Rick were like literal partners because George was more musical. Rick's not musical — at all."

When asked whether they "gradually break down the whole album," Billy pointed out that he redid his parts with gear that he wasn't that used to. The guitarist replied:

"Yes, we literally deconstructed the album on the spot. I went from a Gretch with the Roland and the chorus and the echoes. And he was like, 'Well, that's a Marshall, that's a Les Paul, off you go. It was quite traumatic for me, I gotta tell you."

Le Noise

I love this album too but is it really a career-defining album? LIkewise "Time out of Mind" which is my fave Dylan after the early 70's but I don't think it defines his career.

i am confused, is this thread for producers who had a large impact on the sound of a record or where the artist is more or less a front for a behind the scenes figure who is writing, producing, and sometimes performing the songs?

either way, i am shocked at the lack of mention of frank farian and milli vanilli (or even boney m)

idk about "great" for milli vanilli but certainly successful

I'm not that sure Reign in Blood would've sounded much different or had less success with any other (reasonably competent) producer tbh.

― Siegbran, Monday, 3 March 2025 08:45 (nine hours ago) link

Never really considered Reign In Blood some sonic marvel or anything, anyway. A deservedly classic record, sure, but not exactly something you'd use to test new speakers or anything. What exactly was Rubin's contribution to that record, anyway? Does anybody know? I'd guess he helped the band streamline the songs a bit and cut some fat. iirc there were some needlessly long songs on Hell Awaits

From what I've heard/read, his key insight was that because the music was so fast, you don't want 'big' sounds. No reverb on the drums, no thick mid-rangey snares, which were all in vogue at the time. Paper dry sounds, which suited the music and stills sounds very modern imo (even though metal production now is all triggered and beefed up, from what I hear).

Norman Fucking Rockwell, Lana Del Rey

I suppose a case can be made for Guy Stevens and "London Calling," but hard to say.

Back in the late 90s, I’d heard Brad Wood was largely responsible for Liz Phair’s first few records. But while it’s true she def. didn’t seem to do much after Whip-Smart, I was always suspicious of misogyny driving that narrative.

she def. didn’t seem to do much after Whip-Smart,

uhhh have you heard this great album called whitechocolatespaceegg?

seconding!

Josh mentioned that Jim Dickinson more or less completed Big Star's Third, working w Chilton---to me, that is surpassed by The Complete Third, which adds some excellent (and less excellent, but worth hearing) alt mixes, also some luvly outtakes, like the Alex 'n' Lesa acoustic duets, and Lesa's intrepid solo vocal version of "At The End of The Day" (over the known instrumental track, I think)---as completed by Omnivore, prob their mastermind, Cheryl Pawelski, who pronounces it done, leaving out only a bit of purportedly indigestible studio jam puke (probably available somewhere else right now, on superdeluxe vinyl).
Oh speaking of production by a Svengoolie of sorts, you know what's good? This, as mentioned in my 2017 P&J ballot comments:

Another Chilton-related Omnivore expansion, Carmaig De Forest's I Shall Be Re-Released, which starts with I Shall Be Released, produced and played on by Mr. A.C., some of whose peers still find it startling: Will Rigby, who played with De Forest at CBGB, is quoted in the booklet to the effect that it's a whole other side--"the punkiest"---to Chilton's picking and undocumented anywhere else; lstening again, early adopter Scott McCaughey now raves, "Chilton's production and playing is almost shockingly prescient and wholly brilliant---spiky and wild, yet way more disciplined than he allowed himself to be on his own records."
Well, I hope that's not entirely true of the Chilton recs I haven't heard yet (several others are tight enough), but this certainly works as punky 80s folk-rock: comparisons were and are made to to early Modern Lovers and especially Violent Femmes---Gordan Gano also played that CBGB show w De Forest, who opened for the VFs several times, him and his solitary ukelele. Which is another thing that reminds of Loudon Wainwright III, with his spare, limber, plugged-in LPs and exuberant one-man shows, starting a decade earlier (back when Chilton was covering Wainwright's "Motel Blues" at Big Star gigs).
Also like early Wainwright (and young Jawnwathon Richman, though he's a heavier vocal presence than these other guys), De F.'s got a lot of compressed lyrics, confrontational dream-scenes from complicated relationships (comebacks he wishes he'd thought of at the time and/or will have the nerve for next round: exciting fantasies!), flying by like boomerangs. Plus some still-entertaining topical work-outs, like "Hey Judas" and "Crack's No Worse Than The Fascist Threat."
It's a lot to take in, but right away I hear why and how Chilton responded so well.It's no masterpiece, but pretty refreshing so far, putting sparky spin on (not too-)familiar elements.