The Bad Plus memorial poll (aka These Were the Vistas)

I've heard maybe five or six of these, though I kind of stopped paying attention after Iverson left. I'll always have a soft spot for These Are the Vistas with the "Flim" cover, though I also really like the Joshua Redman collab, esp. that opening track ("As This Moment Slips Away").

Heard about them at an absolutely formative Happy Apple gig and got their debut cd on a trip to New York (the '01 one, before their first major label record), and they have to be in the top 5 of bands I've seen the most times.

So far I've confirmed that the final Iverson album "It's Hard" is up there with their best (and has a great version of The Beautiful Ones), and "Inevitable Western" (all originals) is currently sounding amazing.

I had some idea of going through it in order, but have been bouncing around instead.

The Bad Plus Joshua Redman (Nonesuch, 2015)

I never connected with this (or the live videos I saw) much at the time. I think it seemed like too much of TBP in delicate ballad mode, which wasn't what I was looking for it at the time. But I was wrong! It's a beautiful record, JR really integrates himself into what they do. Have to remember that Old & New Dreams (with Dewey Redman) is one of their touchstone references, from what I understand.

'Prog' is the only one that's not on Qobuz (or Bandcamp or Youtube), which is too bad because I don't think I've heard the whole thing (only remember the Rush arrangement).

Blunt Object: Live in Tokyo (Sony, 2005)

It's great, the version of 'And Here We Test Our Powers of Observation' (the drum & bass one) is absolutely stomping.

Iverson recently said that he was playing part of 'Flim' wrong on the studio version, lol, but corrected it on the live version here. I couldn't pick it out tbh.

Suspicious Activity? (Columbia, 2005)

Last of the Tchad Blake/Columbia trilogy, so it sounds amazing. This one might go harder on unapologetically (sometimes confrontationally) sincere bombast, but all their other modes are there too. 'Anthem for the Earnest' is the big standout for me, it's their motorik tune.

Prog (EmArcy, 2007)

Avoiding Spotify so I listened to the youtube playlist that someone put together that slots in a few live versions of tracks when the album versions aren't available. Sick record, love the Tears for Fears cover (years before it became an instagram drummer meme, and it both does a ton with it rhythmically while avoiding what later became metric modulation cliches). 'Tom Sawyer' cover rules, the whole time you're wondering what he's going to do with the drum solo, and playing it faithfully (on a four piece jazz kit) is absolutely the right move.

'Physical Cities' has some great Meshuggah-on-piano sections, and '1980 World Champion' is a great example of the twisted Dave King gospel shout tune.

Never Stop (EmArcy, 2010)

First album of all originals, this may have passed me by when it came out. I think they always struggled with the 'covers' getting so much more attention than the originals, since they weren't a gimmick band and there were only ever 2 - 3 cover arrangements per album.

I mean this was part of the (very long!) imperial phase so it's excellent, even if it doesn't crack my top 5. The bottom-of-the-piano bombs in 'Beryl Loves to Dance' have teeth, the ballads are gorgeous. The clattery free opener is my least favorite thing on the record. 'Bill Hickman at Home' is a bent New Orleans dirge with an out-of-tune upright piano, and ends in the traditional style with 'Super America', another Dave King handclaps & tambourine (Lutheran?) gospel piece.

For All I Care (EmArcy, 2008 Europe, 2009 North America)

Aka 'the one with vocals', this is actually one of my most-listened-to TBP records aside from the major label debut and It's Hard (the final one from the classic lineup).

Iirc Wendy Lewis is the aunt of Michael Lewis, the saxophonist in Happy Apple (and bassist/saxophone player for Dosh and Bon Iver)? I think her vocals were 'controversial' but they totally work for me. Nirvana, Pink Floyd, Bee Gees, Heart, Yes, Flaming Lips, and I love the modern classical (Ligeti/Stravinsky/Milton Babbit) pieces that work as drum solo miniatures in between.

I saw them on this tour and it was incredible, mostly I remember them doing 'Heart of Gold' for the encore - at the end they all came to the front of the stage and looped the chorus, singing acapella and off mic, very affecting.

Made Possible (EmArcy, 2012)

Oh right, I listened to this a ton when it came out! Another record of all originals, I think of this as 'the one with the synths (occasionally)'. First two tracks are stunning, some of the rhythmic stuff in 'Seven Minute Mind' is wild. 'Re-Elect That' starts with a few minutes of free time that's kind of whatever, but I was obsessed with the drop (!) that happens at 4:30, with the full-on synth melody. 'In Stitches' is the epic that goes from Necks-y to avant-disco in 14 min.

The Rite of Spring (Masterworks, 2014)

Not much to say about this except that it's an impressive achievement. Everyone loves Stravinsky and I wish I enjoyed listening to it more, it's amazing how much they made it their own while sticking to the score. I listened to an interview once where they said it was a commission that they thought they turned down, but their agents committed them to (forget which university it was for). So they had to scramble and spend every soundcheck and hotel night arranging and learning it, based on some prior piano arrangements.

Man, I haven't listened to these guys (or Happy Apple) in a long time, but they were always a ton of fun. The last time I saw Julian Lage I was reminded just what a monster Dave King is.

Never did see these guys live in any incarnation, but I did see Broken Shadows once (Tim Berne on alto sax and Chris Speed on tenor, with Anderson and King, playing music by Ornette Coleman, Dewey Redman, Charlie Haden and Julius Hemphill) and that was great. And I reviewed Suspicious Activity? for either Jazziz or Alternative Press.

sadly couldn't go but Dave King has a new group that made it's debut last night

Bulldozer School (Anthony Cox / Dave King / Brandon Wozniak) — Berlin https://share.google/9ZmK9xhrqmCUrFJNP

I'm hoping this will inspire some folks to listen to the records. On one hand they're one of the most successful and longest-running bands in improvised music, but on the other I feel like they're overlooked these days, and even people who like them may have only heard a few of the covers.

Inevitable Western (Okeh, 2014)

Also not much to say about this one except that I've listened to it multiple times since starting this listening project, and it's gone way up in my list of favorites. All originals once again, and it's more restrained than some of their previous ones, in a good way. Nothing on here is shooting for maximum bombast or sincerity, as much as that can really work for them sometimes (in a way that I think is totally unique in 'jazz').

Some parts are doubled with a celeste or toy piano, that's the only real sonic gimmick here.

Never Stop II (Legbreaker, 2018)

This is the first one with Orrin Evans on piano, I don't think I'd ever heard the whole thing. It's nice, it's good music, and it still sounds more like the Bad Plus than any other band would, but it just doesn't have the same juice for me. I miss the angular rough edges and extreme dynamics. The piano player who's never listened to rock music because he was too busy being a classical and jazz nerd in Wisconsin throwing himself into it with abandon. It also fully sounds like a jazz record, they're not trying to capture the compressed sound of the early records anymore (although I guess that's been true for the last few).

Activate Infinity (Edition, 2019)

The second and final record of TBP 2.0, for me it's much better than the first, in a way that's not easily definable. At this point they must have actually played way more gigs together though. It's still a kinder & gentler TBP, but feels more lived-in. All originals, "Thrift Store Jewelry" was already on Prog (and the one they played on Conan back in the day, boldy/stubbornly doing an original rather than a cover for their big network tv shot).

The Bad Plus (Edition, 2022)

The first record of TBP 3.0, with Chris Speed on sax and Ben Monder on guitar. This is sounding great to me on re-listen, it's got a satisfying saturated and slightly blown-out sound, and this instrumentation really lets Reid Anderson's melodies shine. It reminds me more of his solo album and some of Dave King's other bands than TPB, but also has a certain sincerity and conviction that has always been at the core of their music. It also reminds me of some of Jim Black's Alasnoaxis stuff (also with Chris Speed on sax) more than anything else. I actually saw that band on a double bill with Happy Apple in Milwaukee back in the day, and DK mentioned "oh I have this piano trio too..."

Also saw an incredible show from this lineup, glad I caught them at least once.

Also the biggest difference is that there isn't another percussion instrument in this version, the guitar takes a very textural role, no attack in the sound and lots of ambient shredding. I'm guessing this was a conscious choice to not replicate the former role of the piano? Feels like DK plays a lot more drums to take up that space, the opposite of the 2.0 lineup where it felt like he didn't want to overpower Evans.

Complex Emotions (Edition, 2024)

The final album, very similar to the s/t one above (I actually wondered if they were recorded during the same sessions, but they were a couple years and an ocean apart - first one was done in the UK, second one in Minnesota). Both excellent records, if quite a distance from the classic lineup. Also noticed that there are a lot of rock beats on these records...my theory is that when Iverson was holding down the melody so strongly, it gave the bass & drums tremendous freedom to do anything and still sound unique. But if they were to go to some of those places in the sax/guitar lineup, it would be in danger of sounding more like a 'regular' modern jazz group, or at least less Bad Plus-y. Doubling down on backbeats (and with a rock perspective, not funk-fusion-hip-hop) helps keep it grounded in their world. Could be wrong!

Authorized Bootleg: New York 12/16/01 (Self-Released, 2002)

I'd never heard this before, but it's on youtube now. Def not as good as the official live album, but very interesting to hear them at this early stage. Notable is the anti-singing version of My Funny Valentine (presumably Iverson atonally intoning the weird bridge lyrics), and the Heart of Glass that doesn't get nearly as amped up as the version they'd record a year later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu5dZr1Jklc

Give (Columbia, 2004)

I think I considered this a tiny step down from These Are the Vistas, and maybe some of the originals aren't as memorable, but now it feels like a miracle to have another Tchad Blake-produced TPB album from this period. 'And Here We Test Our Powers of Observation' and 'Iron Man' are all-time classics, the drumming on the former is insane.

The production on these albums have never really been matched imo, proof that you can have distorted upright bass, extreme compression, and creative drum processing on a 'jazz' album in a way that supports the music. Found some great tech info from Tchad Blake (it's funny, I never even thought about the bass being panned hard right with the piano hard left, and the drums being in stereo -- I think most engineers couldn't have resisted the temptation to spread the piano. Also love putting mics in didgeridoos.).

Q. These Bad Plus recordings blow me away. The upright and drums sound clear and present yet dense and surprisingly deep compared to most jazz records. I was wondering if anyone knows whether Tchad Blake was throwing Sans-amp on this stuff or what all went into these sessions….

A. Separate Sans Amps (what they now sell as the ‘Classic’ model) were used on the bass DI, kick drum, and snare drum. Sure Level Loc on a single Senn.441 stuck in the middle of the kit. SpectraSonic 610’s mixed into the OH Neuman KU100 clean signal. Mechanical filters, used on some tracks, comprised of a Sure 57 jammed into a Digeridoo or suitable pipe, pointed at the SN from two feet in front of the kit. Also had an Ahuja vocal mic (East Indian 58) over the kit being sent to an old Teisco 360 guitar amp, in the room behind Dave, sometimes with the tremelo on. Piano was recorded with a Neuman KU100 + 3 AKG 451’s, a bit of EQ, no other treatment.
Mostly Neve1073 pre’s on drums, bass=SSL G, Piano=vint. API pre w/550a eq +SSL G’s on the 451’s.
Mixed on SSL G with an Al Smart C1 across the stereo buss.

Q. I often felt criticized when using 451’s on piano – many would say they’re too bright etc., and sometimes on a Yamaha or Kawai they are presenting the piano as very bright, but often the best way to poke thru a dense mix, or in contrast against heavy handed bandmates..

A. For The BP, they were close to the hammers, stock CK1. Ethan likes Steinway concert grands. They’re not traditionaly bright and yes, to overcome the distorted bass and hard drums that piano needed help.
Left -cntr-right, 3 inches above.

Q. Just wanted to ask real quick if you remember any specific techniques on the drum sound for The Bad Plus album These Are the Vistas..The drums just seem to go completely across the mix but never hides the rest of the music.. Any special panning or mic techniques used? I’d love to know…

A. Being a trio makes it easy. Piano left, drums spread L&R, bass right.

The Bad Plus (Fresh Sound New Talent, 2001)
(now called 'Motel' on streaming services)

After hearing about this band from King around '01/'02 I remember being so hyped to find a used cd copy of this on a trip to New York. Still holds up, and it's so interesting to hear some of these tunes (Smells Like Teen Spirit, 1972 Bronze Medalist) without the best production of all time. In a sense it totally doesn't matter, the band is just as compelling, but I do think the sound (in addition to the covers, the art, the distribution) is what helped make a splash a few years later.

These Are the Vistas (Columbia, 2003)

Saved this for last, still a classic. The originals might not be my favorites ever, but the highs are incredibly high (Big Eater, Flim, Teen Spirit, Heart of Glass). My favorite detail this time around might be the heavy reverb on the piano at the beginning of Everywhere You Turn, as it slowly draws 'closer'.

It feels mostly like I'm posting into the void here but I hope people give these records a chance!

I was never into these guys, they seemed to be trying too hard (“iron man and aphex twin played by a jazz group”), suspicious of jazz press hype, and seeing the original lineup live once didn’t convince me either. But times change and maybe I need to listen now that the hype is long past.

I really tried to give them a chance back in the day, mainly because the Penguin Guide guys were excited about the records on Fresh Sound, including Reid Anderson’s solo album

I would say that their approach to 'covers' was unique - where most jazz groups would treat something as a vehicle for deconstruction or blowing (ie reharmonizing everything, head/solo/head), they always had an interesting take that honored the feeling of the tune, whether that meant escalating free improv under the melody or playing it totally faithfully. And I believe them that the covers were never meant to be the main attraction, they just wanted to draw from the tunes they grew up on in the same way that jazz musicians in the '50s & '60s were doing. Pop music from the last 5 - 20 years.

Some of it definitely has a sense of humor, but I think they were being very sincere at the same time. I remember some laughter during their shows, and maybe it bothered them at some moments. But I think it's more about hearing something unexpected rather than the result of ironic distance, like how Thelonious Monk can elicit laughter, just the audacity of bold choices and commitment.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Dang, really close call

Needs a tiebreaker poll

...and that's how you don't get the gig

lol, amazing poll

lmao

would just like to say that despite not uh voting in this poll, I do have it bookmarked and will be going back to Jordan’s great reflections when it strikes me fancy to dig into their catalog beyond the 2 or 3 I am familiar with. Your efforts are not unappreciated Jordan!