Writing Songs About Writing Songs

And I always bring up rap but come on, those guys spend the whole time they're on the microphone talking about being rappers. But I guess you don't necessarily mean that kind of brag-lyric stuff; that's all about yourself so of course it's bound to mention song writing. You're talking about thoughtful sort of analyses of one's predicament? I guess that rules out Bo Diddley.

A song I like is that Smog song that is all screaming 'We're just a fucking rock and roll fucking band My band is like the Ramones We're just a rock and fucking roll band' etc

Songs that are the worst in the world ever made include millions like 'Just another sad love song' or something by Elton John and does that one count that goes 'If I were a carpenter I'd sing you a love song . . .etc'

If you rule out pathetique attempted humility type 'I'm only just a singer-songwriter' type songs and brag-lyrics . . . I'm stumped, except for I have to mention my friend Matt Middleton who has a song at the end of a record that goes

You've reached the conclusion of this little disk And you've got nothing to show for it

A *good* songwriter (or any sort of writer, really) has the gift to turn the mundane into the extraordinary. For the songwriter, the process of writing is the mundane. If they are talented, and they turn their craft to their gift, they get away with it, the same way a great songwriter can write brilliant songs about washing dishes or going down the pub.

I said a great songwriter could make the mundane sound extraordinary. Paul McC has a way of making even the extraordinary mind-numbingly mundane. ;-)

I thought he released it as a sardonic response to the censorship that 'Give Ireland Back To The Irish' had met with.

on a related note, my band has a cute song called "stick in your skull" that is either the epitome of the effective meta-song, or just a dorky self-indulgent piece of crap. but i'm not quite sure which it is, and i wrote it. so if anyone wants to hear it to help me decide, let me know, i don't want to spam the board with the url.

2. Maryann re. 'Your Song' etc - yes, that was the kind of thing I had in mind, too.

3. Yes, you're right about Paul S / Billy B. Anyone want to solve this deliberate paradox?

4. I think that 'Something Changed' is a similar case, actually - a deliberate mind-bender - a song that builds the paradox of its own making, of being ahead of itself and the events about to happen, into itself. Is something like that right, Nick? (I quite like that song; more than I like most later Pulp, anyway.)

5. Some people have said 'Good songwriters can write about anything - so why not writing songs?' - etc. Up to a point, agreed. But surely the subject of Writing A Song is a different kind of subject to put in a Song That You Are Writing, from other subjects like washing dishes, etc? It introduces a reflexivity (or whatever form of words you prefer) that Washing Dishes doesn't; so seems a special case. That doesn't mean it's bad or good, of course. Possibly my take is: use it sparingly, and it'll be more effective. Like a chorus pedal.

Three verses, each repeating ad nauseum:

"Thinly veiled metaphor for sexual intercourse" or "Meaningless platitude asserting my attitude" or "Overblown display of indie cred cliche"

And we thought we were so clever... ;-)

My favourite self-referential song, however, is Radio Free Vestibule's "The Grunge Song": This is the part of the song that's really quiet/We play very soft, it sounds like a ballad/ (guitars pick up in volume) And this is the part where we play real hard / It's much louder than at the beginning / (guitars get quiet) Then we go back to the quiet part / Again. ... etc.

This is the middle of where I'm mentioning the Garry Shandling Show themetune.

This is where I start to stop mentioning the Garry Shandling Show themetune.

My heart skips whenever I hear Rod Stewart go "I ain't forgettin' that you were once mine / Wrote that lyric without even tryin'" on You Wear It Well.

Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I'd be surprised if Tom hasn't brought up that Dylan song from Blood on the Tracks (the one where he talks about writing "Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" IIRC). Though that's only tangentially about songwriting.

This sort of thing actually seems to happen less in songwriting than in poetry, which surprises me a little, but I suppose that just means that poets are even more self-involved than songwriters.

Q: At the Coach House, you also played a half-finished song about touring. I thought it was sort of funny that your songwriting seemed to overtake your experiences. Do you find that to be true?

A: 'Overtake'.. hmm.. I'm not sure. I used to laugh at Mott the Hoople because all their songs were about being in a rock'n'roll band. Now that seems strangely honest, even noble. 'Late Night, Early Town' will be (if I ever finish it) my homage to Ian Hunter et al. But certainly, it will be form over content should there be a conflict..

So I guess Mott the Hoople has lots of these songs.

There's also a subtle one of these on Neil Finn's latest album. A song called 'Driving Me Mad' where he waxes poetic on deadlines, and says some mystically obfuscated things about writers block, then conjures up a wailing Sheryl Crow for the chorus. Didn't care for it at first, but it grew.

2. The Dylan song in question is 'Sara' and it's on the LP Desire.

"Put my thang down flip it and reverse it" is a literal description of what she/timbaland/whoever are doing as they build the song.

Natasha Bedingfield/"These Words"
Pet Shop Boys/"Left to My Own Devices"
Leonard Cohen (et al)./"Hallalujah"

There must be more...

I like the Lloyd Cole / Mott the Hoople comment above about how there is a certain honesty ... if "being a musician" is what's going on your life it's natural to write a song or two about it.

That said I heard a LIz Phair interview once as she was promoting her second record where she said she only allowed herself one or maybe two songs that dealt with what was going on for her at the time (going from anonymity to it-girl) because, bearing in mind the audience, she figured most of her listeners couldn't relate to that.

Nothing wrong with being honest but it's really about entertaining us, isn't it?

Sparks - Number One Song in Heaven
Herman's Hermits - Henry The VIII ("second verse same as the first")
The Association - PF Sloan

Slapp Happy, "A Worm Is At Work"

Holding forth on a topic of no worth,
a pissy myth about birth of *War
and as for those **Hats - they're a bore

*"War" by Henry Cow
**"Some Questions About Hats" by Slapp Happy.