"tired rhetoric"/vaguely sorta in defence of the concept of ironic appreciation of stuff

Duane I think it's a good thread!

Re: Duane's actual question - I think ultimately that once you like something you like it, and there's no reason that appreciation is lesser because you didn't have the right context. What the context of the listening experience can do is help you to like a song that you might not get into otherwise, or put you off something that you otherwise might enjoy, but it's not a necessary component.

On the matter of irony, I agree with what John said. I can say "Ironically, I like this" to suggest that my enjoyment flies in the face of expectation, eg. "Ironically, I enjoy the MOR-ish aspects of the new Ja Rule album", but I don't think it means anything to say that "I only like the the MOR-aspects of the new Ja Rule album ironically", any more than one can "ironically enjoy playing tennis; if you ultimately don't enjoy it, you're not going to play.

Thus if you claim to like "What's Your Flava", I don't think I'm in a position to dispute the legitimacy of your enjoyment. I can decry your taste though ;-)

(Or: a composition teacher can be fully aware of his/her student's limitations, and yet take great pleasure in their work and identify with their compositional voice.)

I don't really agree that "ironic appreciation = actual appreciation" -- at least not in those terms, I think "ironic appreciation" is much too slippery a term for that. When I put on a particularly silly techno CD while I clean my house, I know it's silly, but enjoy it anyway because it works well in that particular context. I'm guessing that's what most people seem to mean by "ironic appreciation", but I don't think that's the right term for it because I don't feel contempt for the record -- I acknowledge its limitations, but also appreciate the enjoyment it's giving me at that moment, even though I have mixed feelings at best about its artistic premises. So to me, ironic appreciation is about contempt, not ambivalence: it's about a way of listening, in schadenfreude style, that seems to exude distaste for the idea that anyone could possibly believe themselves capable of making anything beautiful or good (and since anything worthwhile can be made to look ridiculous in the right light, it's merely a matter, for the listener bent on that style of listening, of finding the right angle a la Tanya Headon). And I know they're considered a chimera around here, but I really have met people whose fundamental relationship to music seems to be one of contempt. (They tend to be archly narcissistic types with high incomes and -- perhaps surprisingly -- big record collections.)