Definition required: What is Outsider Music?

I love B J Snowden.

I'm trying to get a definite answer for an interview I am preparing.

It's not outsider art, yet definitely has traces of the outsider psychosis. Music generated by the hope/success of mainstream but failing.

Does anyone have a clue what I'm getting at?

Chusid's use of the term just seemed like a journalistic convenience, a way for him to rope together a number of artists he wanted to write about. Some of them, like B.J. Snowden, seem to have a very different understanding of their audience as the audience has of them (a gap which resembles a pathology, really). Others, like Jandek, are simply ciphers. And I can't see how someone like Syd Barrett qualifies at all--certainly he's alienated from the music industry at present, but he's also not (to my knowledge) making any music.

Anyway, I've always been suspicious of this category and its uses, but perhaps someone could post something in its defense and rescue it from the likes of Chusid?

: - )

The fact that it could be consider 'outsider' music is because it is not easily labelled as such.

but havent we skirted around the exact definition of outsider music? is it all encompassing definition of strange yet vibrant music - which exsists out of the mainstream?

I don't think there is an exact definition of outsider music! I think that in general usage though, outsider music has come to mean basically what you said. In addition, an artist's "outsider" status is dependant a perceived difference between the artist and the audience (mental illness, obsessive traits) and that this difference is evident in the music by a reliance on invented techniques (David Fair's guitar, Partch's invented instruments), quirky lyrics, all around strangeness...I think this is basically Chusid's definition of "outsider music".

So would it be safe to say that in the context of the preceding defination that 'outsider art' is made by those without the knowledge and access to the history of the mainstream?

This isn't necessarily true. Jad Fair was definately aware of the Stooges, Beefheart, etc..., The Shaggs covered the Carpenters, Wesley Willis is obviously very aware of large parts of pop culture...I don't see how pop music could be completely inaccesible to anyone. This is where the analogy to art brut/visual outsider art falls apart. It's much easier to be ignorant of Goya than the Beatles, I should think. Mainstream pop music occupies a completely space in our lives than the western art canon.

It's not outsider art, yet definitely has traces of the outsider psychosis. Music generated by the hope/success of mainstream but failing.

As in the music presented to the audience knows what it's aspirations are: i.e. a false idol of the mainstream music of the day - however - because of limitations, the music becomes something else - a beautiful fallacy - bringing something (cliche alert) 'new to the table'.

I think this says more about the audience's expectations/interpretation and makes assumptions about the intentions of the artist. Many "outsider musicians" have no apparent interest in mainstream sucess (i.e. Jandek). On the other hand, the "pop novelty" aspect of much outsider music occasionally allows it to be assorbed by the mainstream. Wesley Willis had a hit on MTV, a major label put out Wild Man Fischer's album...

Agreed re: Chusid, he definately seems to push the patronizing "whoooooooaaaaa crazzzzyy" aspect a little too far. If strangeness = outsider and an adopted outsider pose (No Neck Blues Band/Arthur Doyle) = outsider, then I suppose the term isn't very useful.

Astrid: Your husband's work is what we call "outsider art". It could be by a mental patient, or a hillbilly, or a chimpanzee.
Homer: [gasps] In high school I was voted most likely to *be* a mental patient, hillbilly, or chimpanzee!
Astrid: Well, you should be very excited because outsider art couldn't be hotter.
Homer: So you'd better catch the fever! [shakes fist at Bart] Catch it!

I liked the good old days, when he came right out and called it Atrocious Music.

That's an interesting question though: Why is their interest in outsider music?

buh? i've not written anything about outsider music. i like pearl jam, fercrissakes!

sxxx

i didn't take it to mean that it was romanticizing mental illness,as someone said upthread...

i got the impression it was more to do with the fact that he was making music for the sake of it,with no plans to have it fit in to "musical culture" in general

as in,usually anyone making music has some idea of where (they hope) it will fit in to contemporary culture
eg-indie bands want to play pubs,get a following,get singed,have an album released,tour,etc
avant garde musicians would have some plans maybe to release their music on a small label of similarly minded musicians,perhaps collaborate with people they admire,etc

outsider music,i presume,is made with no plans to fit it into culture in general....
they are obviously aware of other music,they just don't see it as relating to their music

outsider art means,i think,that there is no formal training or knowledge of art,but that is not to say that they have no knowledge whatsoever,they must have seen some paintings,they may even have been to art galleries,i think the crux of the idea is that they don't see their music as fitting into any tradition

Squirm Grandeur are Outsider.

Music is that is excluded from playlisted radio.

That'd be Henry Darger, and he lived in Chicago. "Reasonably adjusted human being" is a relative term considering he was a complete recluse, close to no one.

Chusid and his condescendingly cloying NPR-wannabe comps bite it, btw.

I agree with some parts of your points, Daniel, but I think if you examine Darger's work even in a superficial way, it definitely points to being "mad" (which isn't a value judgement, as far as I'm concerned). Outsider's a pretty loaded and inaccurate term for so many reasons, many of which have already been pointed out here.

why do you think differently?

it's basically music made by people that are easy to exploit due to extreme mental or social deficiencies.

This guy comes to parties at my friends' place and creeperz on the girls. The singing is a heinously practiced Bob Dylan impersonation and overall he seems to land somewhere between Peter Grudzien and, maybe at certain moments, Ariel Pink. But less self aware, I'm certain he's genuinely delusional (long story/ies). I'm kinda reminded somewhat of later Phil Ochs, too, the crazy stuff, but he clearly has a more inept, tenuous grasp on songwriting than Phil (but who doesn't) and is completely oblivious as to how ridiculous he sounds.

I'm making fun of him here, but I honestly enjoy this in ways that I'm at a loss to express effectively. Notwithstanding a blatant Bob Dylan cop and just cringingly odd lyrics the music somehow seems unexpected, and the cheap keyboard sound is just so damned charming. Also, that "B10nde 0n B10nde" is a poem he wrote for/about a friend of mine just kills me. (Incidentally, most of it never actually took place!)

You all have any local outsider celebrities / non celebrities?

(pls google proof his name if ya would)

Turns out the song about meeting a girl in a record store is anther poem he wrote and gave a different friend of mine. Both of them, not coincidentally, worked at record stores at the time.

Outsider music is music that typical is ignorant of or rejects the prevailing values, aesthetic or otherwise, of most other music, and can be defined largely in terms of its aesthetic or its appeal by this relation.

Typically this is manifested by qualities such as naivety or a schismatic difference to other music that is jarring, often to the point where the music making either is or seems to be a manifestation of mental illness.

is the song called "daerest record store gurl" by any chance?
xpost

Is it a lost art form???

I think this might provide an answer:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=66316956&blogID=187516886&Mytoken=BA1B2B37-735E-46EC-A176804D4B6E4E03233013651

Outsider music: Music made by mentals that guys with black-rimmed glasses pretend to like.

is mental instability a requirement of outsider musicianship?
just wondering, i have no agenda

no, it's just that musicians who aren't mentally unstable are boring and nobody wants to listen to them

Jandek seems like he has his head on straight.

so what is outsider music again?

sarahell schooled me up recently - basically to be outsider music u need essentially zero formal training, limited exposure to genre discourse & a certain pig-headedness of method that does not respond to suggestion

i'm getting visions of bruno s and his accordion

wesley willis was the first name mentioned in our conversation iirc

"outsider music" is one of those made-up genres like "zolo" that only exists in the heads of "critics". like, there are people who when you ask them what kind of music they play will say "i play funk" or "i play jazz" or "zeuhl" or what have you. nobody will answer the question "what kind of music do you play?" with "oh, i play outsider music". so really there's not any such thing.

i realize that
it's part of the reason i asked

Yeah, the genre doesn't exist in real life - it's not possible to set out to make outsider music. But it exists as a critical or marketing thing.

Mental state is irrelevant. And the idea that it's music made without training, technique or distribution is a red herring as some of the best known music to be termed outsider music is song-poems which were recorded by competent musicians. Songpoems have (now) been widely distributed and still get called outsider.

To me, outsider music is music that is created without the normal motivations for music-making - ie. to please an audience or to satisfy a personal creative impulse etc. Usually there's an extra element which somehow makes it unique - could be mental illness but usually not. It's generally music created for some unusual or unique purpose - marketing or demonstrating audio products is one. Vintage home recordings can often be called outsider music (ie. Nervous Norvus and the Legendary Stardust Cowboy). I have a disc of recordings people made in the 50s and 60s on a recording kiosk - mostly personal messages or whatever and it includes a test of a blank disc playing. Just a minute of static. That's outsider.

It's a broad term and not very helpful.

everything, would you consider religious music to be outsider music?

Nope. Because that would be a pretty normal impulse for music making. But outsider music can be religious - I recommend the Songpoem compilation "Daddy is Santa Really 6 foot 4" for some good examples.

songpoems existed because of ppl who didn't have the ability/means to write and record them themselves so imo it would be they who conferred 'outsider' status on the form

(going on sarahel's def'n which sounds good to me)

I blame Colin Wilson

xpost. Yes, but not all the poets were bad. And there is another element in songpoems which is that the music was composed and recorded by competent musicians in a huge hurry. They'd get the words and compose and record it in half an hour or less if possible. And the distribution of the songpoems via personal copies or compilations also contributes to their status - the music was not intended to be commercially available or played anywhere other than in the poets home. That is a unique element that contributes to the outsider status.

To summarize: competent poet writes song and competent musicians record it. No different from Radiohead. But the extremely contrived and unique means of creation, production and distribution affect the final product to a degree that it sounds totally unique and it's not really possible to copy it.

Having said that, Momus did do this on that one album and it was interesting and compelling in a similar way. And I'd consider that one album is outside his normal canon but not outsider music.

This is the best outsider album I've ever heard:

https://www.discogs.com/David-Liebe-Hart-Christian-Hymns-And-Songs-Of-Praise/release/2748598

Sample track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvnLDpb4J5I

Really delivers on the promise of outsider art - nearly everything about it is surreal, but it's beautiful in its own unique way.

trying to identify an outsider LP I read about ages back but can't dig up now

I think it was an early 70s US vanity press and was notable for being literally just this guy taping himself singing over popular songs of the era

does anyone know what this is?

Not Jack Murdurian?

hmm don't think so

it's like the Frunk album described here https://mappinghappenings.com/tag/frunk/ but just one dude and (iirc) no attempt to mix it or anything

Oh fuck I think I know the record you mean. Let me sleep on it.

The Palmer Rockey album at that link is immense btw.

shooby taylor?

similar concept but nope

culturcide