Mauricio Kagel : s/d/c ?

i could actually imagine collecting Kagel cds as beautifullly printed books or objets d'art

it's hard to suss out what's improvised sometimes and i do love what i asssume are his composed passages -- i've a nagging suspicion of novelty, and that he's setting himself up as the Borges of music with his various conceits, but he is witty and sensuous -- pretty wild and unpredictable too -- i'm curious as to what people think of stuff they've heard, more s&d than c/d -- it would be fun to search all of it, and the cd packages in their limited edition ownable way have an unhealthy pull on me, as i'm expecting i will wnjoy most of his work given time -- none of it has palled so far, with "playback play" designed to be played and replayed, so i haven't reached a final position on any Kagel yet

Kagel's position seems to make his music attractive where John Cage music is attractive in theory only, the almost decadent recordings often directed and produced by the composer seemingly justifying his cheerfuly academic notes and the arty packaging -- more fun than Braxton

he's more tonal these days i'm told by a fan from the '70s, even if he likes juxtaposing one major key to another minor key -- harmolodic almost

yet though he's great with timbres, gestures, rhythyms, it's all pretty thoroughly composed material cf: the earlier stuff i've not heard that i'm told is 'experimental' in a more 'impromptu' mode -- my correspondent going so far as labelling these thoroughly composed pieces "conservative", which they don't sound to me -- more compositional "strategies" held in check by the context of various historical loose ends.. the conceits that underly the "concepts"

it's as though the "kagey" elements are but one dimmension, applied carefully given the overall intent of the pieces i've heard, and maybe an intent that these pieces be committed to history via cd

anyone care to comment on these "experimental" "egaliterian" outings from the 60s/70s ?

But it still feels like I've only heard a small slice of a long and varied career. I haven't really read much critical/biographic info beyond what's in the CD booklets.

I replied: did you receive it?

not sure about some of Kagel's more open-ended pieces from the '60s and '70s -- i checked out heterophonie and improvisation ajoutée recently, but that left me keen to hear anagrama (also from '60s, by Kagel, not the SY1 thing that hasn't worn repeated listenings, cf: umma gumma)

the improv. elements of Kagel may be a bit too kagey for me cf: the strictly scripted '80s and '90s stuff -- like phantasie for flute/piano, which has two versions, the accompanied one you mightn't have heard with a trans-style hidden script

I haven't bought any more Kagel but i shall when I can get some more time.

they're both fantastic but they're so addictive

I like both the Winter & Winter discs: I would love to hear Rrrrrr... in its native setting, and Playback Play is a lot of fun
Chris : have located a friend with a copy of the out of print organ realisations of Rrrr. -- will let you know
Have you heard another acousmatic radio drama on cd Nah and Fern ?

I liked the accordion stuff more than the piano but that's prob becuz I have heard so much more piano than accordion but i need to listen more to that disc.

and if you can think of piano stuff you've heard that's like the kagel stuff in some similarly unique way let me know

has dumitrescu carried repeated investigation, and if so which stuff ?

OK

''has dumitrescu carried repeated investigation, and if so which stuff ?''

don't understnd 'repeated investigation' bit actually. clarify.

but the organ stuff has to be heard ! and his active involvement in the production of cds of his own work suggest he will make every effort to bring the organ and the cathedral to the listener !

so for recent cd re-issues of "organ improvistaions" we get (eg) a mid-period re-touch involving organ + over-dubbed incidental noises from a day in the life of an organ player (like the sounds of a kettle blowing, paper crumpling, ..) and of course the organ music itself is far more interesting than anything of the Beatles instrumental music (except perhaps "being for the benefit of Mr. Kite" or "rev. # 9")

Kagel's approach is like that of Messiaen or Malec in some ways, in that the organ + cathedral provides early synth-like ways for throwing complex waveforms against each other creating many calculated waveform modulation opportunities

and the organ "improvisations" seem to serve all sorts of wacky "theatrical" ends, seemingly with the aim of incorporating theatre/drama into the musical form (ie for the audience qua listener) (and maybe with the added theatrical element for people actually sitting in a cathedral of subverting the historical religious institutional qualities to overlay installational material)

to re-create the real audio-dynamics of live organ echo and bounce in cathedral for a recent recording of a '60s organ work he took an organ piece and ring-modulated in bits of crowd clapping, shouting and choir singing into a very fluid whole which is potently jaw-dropping in comparison to regular recorded organ recitals i've heard

the "radio play" form he's often pursuing (in the interests of Wellesesque authenticity) seems to have different vesions of pieces floating around with deliberate ambient noise added as sound souces, sometimes using tacky cheap tape recorders or bored percussionists, sometimes sneaky re-touches (like the over-dubs or ring-modulutions)

they claimed Kagel was a renegade composer in the late '60s, and some people i know think his move towards more thoroughly-composed works in the '80 and '90s as the increased conservatism of a middle-aged composer, but i see his recent subtle yet accomplished use of technology as it emerges as evidence of a deeper and more cunning and more inscrutable subversiveness

it's better than a simple libretto, more wayward than notes on how the jazz works or hip poetry included as sleeve notes for reading during listening to jazz records

if jazz were the target genre only things like Mingus' psychiatrists notes' from "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady", Sun Ra as myth/truth and maybe some of Braxton's "private science" writings would have that same "stranger than fiction" quality Kagel achieves

these "contexts" are as much fun to read and enjoy as the music is to listen to, augmenting the musical experience (even if they are a part of the whole musical experience anyway i suppose)

and it ruins the pieces to list each pieces anecdote here, fun as each synopsis is on it's own

the best use of cd booklets i've ever seen

The line on kagel is that he's a bit of a joker, someone who gets off on subverting classical convention so you end up with things like 'exotica', for fake-ethnic instruments; or something like 'ludwig van', which is a collage of mis-read beethovian riffs. Looking back now after having listened to these I never thought it to be THAT anarchic as he lets these passages breathe. I feel i can return to it again unlike some of (say) cage's music. I never found myself laughing out loud at any point during 'exotica' but did laugh only when the perf ended -- as if the crowd saw a wonderfully virtuosic perf of this fantastic concerto -- this feeling of classical music eating itself alive.

I also caught a perf of 'acustica' earlier in the year that has some affinity with 'exotica' (sound-wise) in the sense that you're watching performers learning to play again. The visual component makes the crowd a far more active participant. Laughing at these things is important and the moment the joke runs out the composition dies but that hasn't happened yet. the same applies with his opera 'staatstheater' although I've only heard a cut from it.

finally 'heterophonie' for an orchestra of 42 solo instrumentalists is the most 'normal' thing of his that I've spent anytime with. that's great, he can deconstruct the mass really well. Urgent and key and all that.

anyone heard dieter schnebel -- think he's worked with kagel but he's done other things too hasn't he? any recommendations?

http://post-paranoia.blogspot.com/2008/09/requiescat-in-pace-mauricio-kagel.html

time for this: http://www.avantgardeproject.org/AGP2/index.htm

http://www.ubu.com/film/kagel_solo.html

R.I.P.

Seems like you need to make it onto a 'wacky' Beatles album cover to be listened to.

Heterophonie is, as I said above, absolutely fantastic

If I were a rich man this is how I'd burn down an opera house

Reminding me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROWDyXQqJRc

Just popped in to say "Musik für Renaissance Instrumente" is great.

Worth mentioning ICYMI that a box set of DG's '60s Avant Garde series (which includes that piece) is on the way. Apparently it's missing a lot of the Stockhausen that was originally part of that series, but I'm excited anyway.

A lot of material on that box set was reissued around the turn of the millennium in DG's “Echo 20/21” series of CDs.

I collected all Echo 20/21 volumes except for the Kagel. At the time I was convinced that, if his work was so theatrical, then listening to it on an audio-only medium might prove unsatisfying. I eventually became familiar with every Darmstadt figure, even obscure ones, except for Kagel. Maybe I should give him a chance.

funny to read this thread despite knowing nothing about Kagel

i used to listen to George Gosset's radio show every week as a teenager

i distinctly remember him playing "10 marches to miss the victory". it would've been right around when this thread was started, almost exactly 20 years ago...

he even identified it incorrectly on air (and subsequently my tape) as he did upthread as "marches for the retreat" or something similar which meant i could never traack down who it actually was... only to find out today!