Ron Sexsmith: Big Ron or [w]Ron[g] Turning?

No.

On the evidence of 'Other Songs' (the only one I've heard) he has nothing special to offer. That doesn't preclude membership of the 'craftsman's union' of course. Personally I try and give "solo singer-songwriters" a wide berth - I'm not that interested in the personal/confessional and there's never anything of musical interest. Sweeping generalisations maybe, but there's so much else around which is more interesting. There seem to be so many these days - Ed Harcourt, Tom McCrae, Rufus Wainwright. Thankfully I've never heard most of them. Who buys this kind of stuff?

people looking for soul

.....& guys on the new NY Beard Rock scene.

>>> he has nothing special to offer. That doesn't preclude membership of the 'craftsman's union' of course.

I'm not sure about that. There's not that much 'craft' around, at least not the kind of craft I have in mind.

But maybe he could be really low-ranking in the union hierarchy. His fees are paid cos he makes tea for President Bacharach and General Secretary Wilson at the union meetings.

What sort of craft do you have in mind, Pinefox? We've touched on this before, but I'm still interested in tackling this 'craft' question.

Me too. I don't have a great take on it, I'd like to hear yours. I'm mainly thinking of song structures, chords, melodies. Lyrics would have to come in somewhere down the line too. In other words, 'songwriting', considered NOT particularly in terms of self- revelation, honesty, sincerity or whatever, but as - what?... as a vocation - a challenge - an obstacle course - a set of opportunities - a field of possibilities - a series of formal decisions.

The thing about Ron isn't his reputation, it's the songs. I can't imagine why anyone would point props to Rufus Wainwright but turn around and say that Ron is nothing special, because they both mine the same field...and I'd argue that Sexsmith does it far more successfully. There's nothing much on a first listen that grabs you with Ron's three Interscope (read: Mitchell Froom) albums because they're pretty subtle. Give them room to grow, and if you have any love for this kind of school of pop, you'll get it. Ron starts out tentatively, but it certainly has the power to break your heart.

Oh, and by the way...those who were off-put by the production style of the three Interscope records, try to check out the newest, Blue Boy. Steve Earle and Ray Kennedy produced this time around, and the sound is more free, upbeat and immediate. More like his very first, Grand Opera Lane, but with really great songwriting.

people looking for soul

Dude, that's harsh! I get bored by a lot of singer/songwriter stuff, but I'm sure there's a way to like what they do without being a doompatrol type.

Oh, and sorry, Dr. C: I misread your original comment w/r/t Rufus Wainwright to believe that you found him more interesting. My mistake. Those that DO love Wainwright after his Gap ad, however, should pay attention to Ron, too. There.

Pinefox, read Jimmy Webb's book, "Tunesmith". He moves through each phase of the songwriting process, writing about the decisions he makes as he progresses.

As someone who has written songs for about ten years now (not that that really qualifies me to talk on the subject) I think it's definitely a mixture of the two elements, technical and emotional. You might say this about anything in life, though. There is a lot of technical hard work to Jimmy Webb's technique; for example, he will make lists of rhymes from rhyming dictionaries, considering every possibility, and he understands the mathematical structure of melodies. However, I think choosing the correct rhyme or melody is almost always an emotional judgement, although it may be tempered by technical boundaries. For example, Webb (like many 'conventional' songwriters) looks down on half-rhymes; he would never rhyme 'time' and 'line'. Unfortunately, there aren't any rules on which actual rhyme is better: 'line' and 'mine' or 'line' and 'fine'? It's an emotional choice made by the writer, depending on the lyrical structure and emotions/places he's trying to convey.

I sometimes think a crafted song is similar to a joke. Jokes usually build up two or more constrasting ideas and the punchline ties them together. Making new connections in the brain gives us pleasure, and jokes are an intense form of that pleasure. Songs can be similar; every twist and turn that a song makes presents a new idea, a new connection, and often these can be compounded by linking them to a familiar idea, thus strengthening that familiar idea in the brain. The craft is in balancing the familiar with the new and interesting.

People like old jokes, too, though; the rush isn't as intense, but the familiar feeling is pleasant, and telling an old joke probably brings back other memories of when you first heard it. Therefore it doesn't necessarily surprise me that Elvis Costello and Elton John rush to praise Ron Sexsmith; his songwriting style is similar to the craftsmanship of Jimmy Webb and many pre 1970 songwriters who Elvis and Elton would have grown up with. That might not be the case, however, for many people in our generation.

John, that was an interesting post, with a classic deliberate mistake. "He would never rhyme 'time' and 'line'" had me mentally checking through some Jimmy Webb songs (indeed almost singing "Once In The Morning" in the office in an attempt to remember all the words) and feeling a little foolish when I thought about "Wichita Lineman"...

Ah, damn; I was taking the man on principle, not example. Sorry. Well, everyone's done it...

The half rhyming I mean, not taking people on principle or making classic deliberate mistakes. Although, I hope it's proving harder to find someone who's never put a half rhyme in a song...

Don't apologise! If I *had* sung some of the slightly more off-colour verses of "Once In The Morning" (which contains full rhymes only, as far as I can recall) in front of my boss then there might have been cause for apologies...

John Davey wrote interestingly here a while back and I never responded.

>>> As someone who has written songs for about ten years now (not that that really qualifies me to talk on the subject)

I imagine that maybe it does qualify you to talk about Whatever It Is That You Do (presumably you don't write songs of 'every' kind). I don't mean by that, though, that anyone who doesn't write songs isn't equally in a position to talk about them.

>>> There is a lot of technical hard work to Jimmy Webb's technique; for example, he will make lists of rhymes from rhyming dictionaries,

Well, I am in favour of rhyming dictionaries. But they are like thesauri in that you often find that you knew all the relevant words already!

>>> considering every possibility, and he understands the mathematical structure of melodies.

I wonder if you can tell me what you mean by The Mathematical Structure of Melodies. I like the sound of it a lot. But I'm not sure I get it yet. (Leopold Bloom says something like 'Numbers all it is' in the middle of a meditation on music. I don't suppose he got it either.)

>>> For example, Webb (like many 'conventional' songwriters) looks down on half-rhymes; he would never rhyme 'time' and 'line'.

I'm afraid that I am not in favour of this as a 'technical' rule. I'm surprised that a songwriter as experienced as Jimmy Webb (about whom I know little, save that many rate him) would adhere to such a dubious and limiting rule. If anything, I have come to think that one thing that writing loads of songs teaches you is how to use pararhymes - what non-rhymes will work; how close you have to be, how far you can get away with. Using a tonally appropriate pararhyme is a lot better, usually, than using a full-on rhyme just for 'technical' reasons even though it spoils the lyric by introducing a new register (idiom, if you like). The one way in which I am in favour of such 'sheer technicalities' would be re. what I (just about) understand by 'formalism' - the setting of deliberate limits as exercises. (I'm not sure if this is really Formalism as others understand it, though. And my definition above might as well be Classicism. But I think you know what I mean - try writing a song which never once uses the word 'I', for instance.)

>>> Unfortunately, there aren't any rules on which actual rhyme is better: 'line' and 'mine' or 'line' and 'fine'? It's an emotional choice made by the writer, depending on the lyrical structure and emotions/places he's trying to convey.

I daresay I agree with this. But note that all four words are very neutral, very average, very uncontroversial. The real problem - the time you're taking risks - is when you use a word like 'Florentine' or 'Columbine' instead. Very easy to do when you've got a Rhyming Dicto - too easy, in fact. I distrust 'This is like Cole Porter' stuff for this reason - it is easier to write a silly line which uses an outlandish word than really work for the right word. (That's no criticism of CP himself, of course.)

>>> Therefore it doesn't necessarily surprise me that Elvis Costello and Elton John rush to praise Ron Sexsmith; his songwriting style is similar to the craftsmanship of Jimmy Webb

Sorry, I don't see this. This is precisely what I was trying to say upthread - that I don't see the Craftsman aspect in RS, that it's a bit of a myth. The detail that I imagine Webb goes into is surely very different from whatever it is that RS has to offer.

Rhyming in songs is infantile and is best kept for sesame street and washing powder jingles (shame Ron, shame!)