META: Markettes? (Aka. Truth vs. Beauty, FITE!?)

(haha dave q to thread.)

Didn't Nabisco agree with him at some points on that thread?) I don't like what I've seen of Christgau's writing, but I haven't read much of it and I'll be damned if I'm going to wade through it

(mark s's writing (here anyway) reminds me a lot of Charles Olson's.)

''(also is it just an unbreachable us/uk divide where the latter demands an alternative to "gracelessness and hostility and patronising polemic" and the former thinks that's just a bunch of "gay bullshit"?)''

heh...I did think jerry was a bit of a 'Momette' (yuck) when, in some other thread he said something like: why isn't there a pet shop boys mk II etc etc.

Mark s replied that Tatu is no1 but they are kind of 'thrashy' really.

a)having more fun despite arguing
b)wearing the crown

(but really ILM wouldn't be the same without 'characters' like momus and mark)

(btw the dinosaur and the robot are totally equal in my heart)

4rGu3 4\/\//-\'/ !|\| J00R k-l@M3 pr0-4|\|+! xG4|_| \/\/3R|_|)!@#!@#!@#~

3y3 g0+ R3WT !|\| /-\|_|_ J0R B0X3N!1!!1!!1!!1!!1

3Y3 |-|@X0R3D YUO /-\LL!!!!!1!1!!1!!!

3Y3 0\/\/|\|Z /-\LL YUO L@M3RZ!!!!!1!!1!!!

"infinitely" is obviously a practical problem, bcz none of us have quite that much time to play with... how you divide up yr real-time, real-world attention, ie how much more attention you pay stockhausen than steps — in view of redressing balance elsewhere and in view of dealing adequately with seemingly difficult or demanding ideas (two completely difft matters) — is a genuinely difficult issue, which is surely almost always more shaped by personal taste than it is by abstract critical justice (whaever that could possibly be)

(stockhausen's ideas are for example kept hidden away in a nearly impenetrable fortress of terrible writing and confused thinking, built by himself and his praetorian guard of fanboy acolytes over decades: the fact is, that to take his good dimensions seriously, you have to treat his bad dimensions as the bullshit they are, the impatience this engenders, given the work you have to do to reach the condition of being confident abt being ACCURATELY impatient, being — I think, punkah mitty to the last, heh — MORE respectful than mere parrot-oid reverence)

In a conception of the world where ideas are approaches to something underlying, strident polemic is good -- tough fites are good -- throw the ramones against shania's t-shirt and see which wins, etc. Where ideas are gems in themselves, then they should be polished and treasured and treated delicately.

But the thing here is it transposes between method of criticism esthetic of appreciation -- an idea about the world is only good if it is strong, but that isn't the only reason to listen to the ramones. sinkah's punk ethos is that the music really does matter, but only becuz it is a powerful tool for approaching the world -- momus' flaneur treats the world as there only to provide material for his songs. And likewise momus has strong and polished ideas but that isn't the only reason to listen to him. (if you dislike momus, read magnetic fields maybe or hell guns & roses).

i.e. "what does this UNLEASH" vs. "what does this EMBODY".

So maybe this is punk's defining contribution, and why we keep coming back to it -- that it promised (if didn't fufill) an oblique esthetics of materialism.

And like I said what troubles me is that I can't transpose critical method (where I identify more with sinker) to esthetics -- i.e. if Shania had worn a Field Mice t-shirt instead maybe she could have damaged them, and maybe it wouldn't have been good -- maybe some music is just fine even if it doesn't set out to dominate the world or make any claims, or even embraces its insularity.

And then I find that I need to reject that again, because I can't identify with that and don't need that, neither in the critical realm where it ultimately results in solopsistic disengagement nor in the musical realm precisely because it can't relate to the other aspects of my life.

and in case that kind of thing comes off like a superficial attempt to slide into markettedom, i'd also like to state for the record that i heard that tatu cover today and consider all its defenders certifiably insane.