Taking Sides; Songs vs Music (and maybe 'Tunes' too)

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Noel Gallagher said something years ago about "all good songs can be played on just an acoustic guitar" plus "I don't think a bassline ever made a song great". Seeing as I'm in the middle of my hip hop awakening at the moment, plus have been listening to lots of Can and Eno and Talk Talk lately, I'm inclined to disagree strongly with Mr Gallagher. I also remember a line from the NME review of Urban Hymns saying that This Time was "the only song that probably wasn't written on just an acoustic guitar" which is largely explanatory of my problem with that album (early Verve stuff sounded like it was made up on the spot or 'guessed at' rather than 'written' - Brainstorm off A Northern Soul is prob. my fave Verve 'tune' and you couldn't play that on an acoustic guitar unless you were mentalist). When I got into Orbital at 16 and my indie-loving mates were mortified that it didn't have guitars in it, one friend commented "but they're not songs are they?"

Is there a difference between 'songs' and 'music' and 'tunes'? How do jazz, post-rock, hip hop, ambient et al fit into this? Does a 'song' have a definite verse-chorus-verse? Can a 'song' only be played on an acoustic guitar? How integral are samples / basslines / fx / etcetera to 'songs'?

Or;

Tune vs Arrangement - fite!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 February 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

well, it probably wont surprise you to learn that im not really a songs person. basslines, noises, fx, textures, all those things you mention, they are the things that make music nice for me. the presence of an acoustic guitar would just about ruin music for me! and if it can be played on an acoustic guitar, im still wary;)

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Gareth try D Bailey or L Mazzacane Connors

I'm totally lost on this, I don't know what a 'song' is anymore. I think it's when some noise bits are repeated exactly more than in 'non-song' stuff. There's a magic of number of times you repeat the same sonic thing, boom! it's a 'song'!

― dave q, Monday, 10 February 2003 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

How many times? 3? 4? dave q this could be the magic number that holds the secrets of the universe in it's square root, or something.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 February 2003 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Also Gareth - what about the Fair bros.

― dave q, Monday, 10 February 2003 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

None of them are integral, hence the popularity of the remix.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 10 February 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

If it has predominantly non-sampled vocals its a song. If it doesn't, its a track. Noel is talking rubbish.

(Is this the ILM equivalent of the pubs vs bars thread?)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 10 February 2003 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

''Gareth try D Bailey or L Mazzacane Connors''

hehe...Dave that's just what i was gonna say (I wouldn't have mentioned Loren as I've enver heard him on acoustic)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 10 February 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

If tunes are so bloody all-encompassingly important, then how come so many pop songs have the SAME TUNE?!?!? Does that make them the same song? Fuck off, does it.

The day that I accept musical philosophy from Noel Gallagher is the day that I hang up my CD-player and give up listening to music forever.

― kate, Monday, 10 February 2003 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

"Noel Gallagher said something years ago about "all good songs can be played on just an acoustic guitar" "

Did he mean "all good music can be played on acoustic guitar", or when he said "songs" was he referring to specific, more structured type of music.

i.e., if he was saying "for people who deal strictly in songs, their best stuff could always be stripped down to acoustic guitar, but there is plenty of good stuff from the non-song format wherein the noises are more an inherent part of the track" then I wouldn't object quite so much as if he was saying "there's only one way to be great, and that is writing songs which can still be enjoyed when stripped down to acoustic guitar."

FTR, I enjoy both textural sound-based pieces of music AND verse-chorus-verse pop songs. I am grateful that their is plenty of good stuff from both camps that I can listen to depending on what my mood is.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 10 February 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess that I sort of sympathise with the idea behind what he's saying... that a good choon will sound good even when it's stripped down and played on an acoustic guitar. But it takes SO MUCH MORE than just a choon to make a good song, so it's pretty much worthless.

― kate, Monday, 10 February 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

But Kate - what if it's just an unaccompanied vox or vocii

― dave q, Monday, 10 February 2003 13:25 (twenty-two years ago)

All the best songs can be sung silently in your head with thoughts.

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Monday, 10 February 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, the best guitar solos can always be sung (yet another strike against Noel) is what I always said... so I guess if yer going to reducto ad absurdum, then, yeah. If you can sing it, it's great. Which works with textural things as well.

― kate, Monday, 10 February 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

'the best gtr solos can always be sung' - agreed if your definition of 'sung' inc. the noises made by Tuvans or machines or tracheotomy-box ppl or animals. Why limit the gtr to a substitute vox or saxophone like everybody's been doing forever?

― dave q, Monday, 10 February 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that I have a slight (or maybe more than slight) preference for songs, and definitely for tunes. My 70's pop roots, I guess. And I agree that what Noel Gallagher said might actually make sense if he meant it to apply to songs in the narrow sense (rather than "any good piece of music whatsoever"). One the other hand, I like some Arabic music which, like jazz, starts with a song and then twists it and reshapes it, so that at a certain point the shape of the song might not even be that important to the performance; and I do like some music where the tunes are hard to decipher, if there at all (like some Sun Ra stuff I enjoy).

It's funny how a lot of the music that is supposed to be interesting for its textures doesn't seem to me to have textures that are any more appealing than more song/tune- oriented stuff.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 10 February 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

'It's funny how a lot of the music that is supposed to be interesting for its textures doesn't seem to me to have textures that are any more appealing than more song/tune- oriented stuff'

Completely OTM. (also, not all acoustic gtrs sound the same as each other either! Is it a Gibson or a Martin? Is the guy using fingers or a plectrum? Texture's where you find it, ie everywhere!)

― dave q, Monday, 10 February 2003 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Nylon vs steel strings fite!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 February 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

A shitty artist can luck into a good tune, but probably won't luck into good Music or Arrangement or Sound or whatever. I mean, melody is out there, anyone can take it, but a good arrangement won't fall into your lap.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"all good songs can be played on just an acoustic guitar"

Okay, Mr. Gallagher, you're the big Beatles fan, play me "A Day in the Life" on just an acoustic guitar!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 10 February 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I encountered a busker trying to do just that the other day. It was rub.

― RickyT (RickyT), Monday, 10 February 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

But maybe "A Day in the Life" isn't a good "song" in this sense. I think he is saying that a good song qua song, should be transferable. A musician friend of mine who was a huge Beatles fan used to sometimes say that a lot of their songs weren't really good songs in this sense (especially the late studio works). That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't good music.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 10 February 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

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