More Punk: Avril or Norah Jones?

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Or maybe Pink?

You know where I'm going with this.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

duh, Norah Jones is jazz

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 23 February 2003 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

No way, dude. She's SO punk rock. She employs many of the elements of punk, so that makes her punk. She has an unorthodox singing style, for one thing. VERY punk. And also, she's kinda good, but in a shitty way. Man, it doesn't get any more punk than that.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 23 February 2003 07:53 (twenty-two years ago)

by the new and unbending rules of punk whichever one is MORE punk is automatically LESS punk yknow

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 23 February 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

My mom knows who Norah Jones is (and recommends her CD), but she doesn't know who Avril is, therefore Avril is punk.

Then again my mom didn't recognize Beck at the Whitney last weekend, either.

― hstencil, Sunday, 23 February 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i.e. whose genre contestation/confusion upsets the false divisions of the "norms" more? also genre/gender contestation fite.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm glad you clarified. Cause when you said "You know where I'm going with this," I thought you clearly meant you were going for a joke.

i.e. whose genre contestation/confusion upsets the false divisions of the "norms" more? also genre/gender contestation fite.

I hate to admit ignorance, but I feel like starting another Xgau thread about that sentence. What???

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 23 February 2003 08:04 (twenty-two years ago)

If any one of them weighed 200 pounds they wouldn't have a record deal and they would be playing in coffee-bars for peanuts and then they would be punk as fuck cuz they would have nothing to lose and even more weight to gain which would make them happier and less willing to starve themselves emotionally for the gratitude of the lucky few caffeined crowd who cheered them on for being "real" and "vital" and they would go to college and become somebody or something. But they aren't fat,they are skinny and beautiful and have okay voices and right on cheekbones and they shiver when it's cold out(maybe a little too much) and they watch their sales and chart positions cuz this is what they think is salient but all in all they don't have a clue cuz they never learned nothing in school(which makes them snot noses but not punks.) Ravi's little girl deserves better.That quiet humble grammy nominee tag just don't cut the mustard.HER version of waif-stylee "Across The Universe" will surely follow in the wake of po' Fionas object lesson in how to keep yur head down and be sullen/opaque/doll-like in times of national emergency when what is called for is loud/ballsy/fuck-you-too.Calling Trina to thread!!!!!!

― Scott Seward, Sunday, 23 February 2003 08:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, calling YOU to thread. Again and again. Right the fuck on!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 23 February 2003 08:39 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, sterling, we know where you are going with this.

whose more punk? sterling's mom or hstencil's mom?

whose more punk? punky brewster or blossom?

whose more punk? abba or elo?

whose more punk? col. saunders or ronald mcdonald?

whose more punk? tone loc or young mc?

― jack cole (jackcole), Sunday, 23 February 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

col. saunders? - well la-di-da

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 23 February 2003 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

punk is all about abrasiveness, neither of these carefully marketed queens qualify but thanks for trying.

hstencil's mom OWNZ(_)RXZXXX all.

― gygax!, Sunday, 23 February 2003 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Moby.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

punk is ALL ABOUT UNCRITICAL ACQUIESCENCE TO THE NICHE-MARKETING RULES OF THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY, sterl

punk is older than hstencil's mom, therefore punk is not entitled to define what what punk is

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

what what pip pip toodle-oo chaps

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway the answer = norah cz her name sounds way more english

(stinky toys to thread!!)

(d'you see where i'm going with this?)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

do you know how old hstencil's mum is mark?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

she is younger than lady godiva's horse julio

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

What Kenan said after Scott said.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 23 February 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

HEY BUT SCOTT DUDE WHAT IF THEY WERE FAT AND BLACK HUH HUH

this is just a test of yr reflexes

― Millar (Millar), Sunday, 23 February 2003 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

''she is younger than lady godiva's horse julio''

that clears it up. yes it does!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 23 February 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he is calling you a potato farmer

― Millar (Millar), Sunday, 23 February 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

The Smurfs

― Andrzej B. (Andrzej B.), Sunday, 23 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

(only their old stuff of course)

― Andrzej B. (Andrzej B.), Sunday, 23 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

It's interesting to see how there's nobody posting any effort at a sensible answer here because neither Jones nor Lavigne is juxtaposed with an indie band/ethos and a gang of fools supporting said indie band/ethos.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 23 February 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

i think it also might because people are stupid, ronan.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Duh...huh?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 23 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.punkmagazine.com/images/coming729x584.gif

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 23 February 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

My mom is older than punk, 'cause she invented it. You shoulda seen her slamming to Louisville hardcore bands at Charlie's Pizzeria (home of the peanut butter pizza!) back in the day!

― hstencil, Sunday, 23 February 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

alex that lettering is grebt

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Courtesy of the mighty John Holstrom.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

that's what i tht: is it a flyer for the mag?

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

A promo poster that they used to plaster around prior to their first issue.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

has anyone else ever seen that clip of the iranian documentary abt uk punk? it has loads of shots of punkers in kings road, and then the albert memorial

then it defines punk as a small stubby bit of burnt rope!!

(which is like, valid, if you look in a dictionary, but possibly not what holmstrom had in mind)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

were you already "in nyc" back then alex?

i used to know mary harron a bit, but now she's famous and canadian again

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I've always been "in nyc", since I've never lived anywhere else (apart from four years of college in Ohio).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Incidentally, when they were plastering those flyers around NYC, I was about eleven years old. I didn't mean to create the impression that "I was there, maaaaaaaan!"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Well Ronan, my little troll, Sterling isn't really asking a question at all in that he believes he alread has the Answer. It has nothing to do with said indie band/ethos or "a gang of fools" -- on a purely genre level, none of those choices are punk even remotely (and that's isn't to say if something isn't punk it isn't good either).

But then again, I imagine you probably don't savor the irony that your kneejerk reactions to said indie band/ethos, the cartoon you have created, isn't any different than what you accuse your "gang of fools" of at all.

i think it also might because people are stupid, ronan.

I'm sure that is always the answer for you, Jess. It makes the world a lot easier if you divide it up that way.

― jack cole (jackcole), Sunday, 23 February 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

also, the whole chartpop vs. indie dichotomy is absurd -- it gives "indie" a power that it does not have in the marketplace and population in general.

― jack cole (jackcole), Sunday, 23 February 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

jack, actually, I did ask a question. its in the title of the thread. then i asked two more later on.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Jack if you retype your post in English we might get somewhere. I'm not sure what your point is, because you're obviously not sure what mine is.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 23 February 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, you're right jack, maybe i should change that to: "i think it might also be because many people on ilm have such limited ability to see wit and whimsy and play and sarcasm and legitimate interest (as well as a whole host of other, perfectly valid intentions) to others posts and questions that it borders on the terminal, and there is also a contingent which lap-doggedly buys into a very post-facto defn. of 'punk' which is very much shaped by marketing and the will of popular culture, even while they strenuously argue otherwise even just by invoking this lame dog stance (the two are not always grouped together but neither are they mutually exclusive), ronan."

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

and i can understand that people might feel their opinions "aren't valid" on threads like this, but that's only because they treat them like jokes at the outset...if punk rock means so goddamn much to you, then leaving it to moulder in fixed defn is a pretty piss-poor, slow death way to treat a loved one

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

i.e. whose genre contestation/confusion upsets the false divisions of the "norms" more?

Clearly then the answer is Avril, b/c no one cares what genre Norah Jones fits into. Though,

by the new and unbending rules of punk whichever one is MORE punk is automatically LESS punk yknow

is also true.

also genre/gender contestation fite.

As in "Who does this grrl think she is, anyway?"?

― jm (jtm), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

okay so if a "neither are punk at all" type wants to jump in, there's a good argt. to be had here actually -- classiXoR punk was full of gender contestation, breaking down established views of what people should or shouldn't do -- mark s' essay at http://tashpile.pitas.com tells the "the one in the bell bottoms" story etc. So why is the genre confusion of avril & norah different better/worse than the gender confusion of Wendy O. or whatever?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think the question applies.

― jm (jtm), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Gender confusion is sexier.

― hstencil, Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

...applies because there is no resolution to the prev. question. Iffin one were to determine that, say Avril IS Punk (capital P), then she can choose to ascribe to established ClassiXoR Femme-Punk politics or to be really, nothing but a teenybopper, which would force a re-examination of the previous answer.

― jm (jtm), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

...Or a re-definition of PunXoR, whichever you like arguing about better.

― jm (jtm), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

gender = genre and part of the fun comes in the upsetting of that particular applecart

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

More Punk: Avril or Morrisey, and does length of career deterime the ultimate answer, also also genre/gender contestation fite.

― jm (jtm), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(which may be why hip-hop lags behind post-punk in terms of gender blah blah...hip-hop's baddest bitches have to [are content with?] playing up to [parodying?] the alpha-male stereotype in order to get ahead whereas atypical girls tend to subvert rock by decentering the cockthrobstud pulse, which goes someway towards explaining why the raincoats are "different" [not to mention more interesting] than the clash [or sleater-kinney], and also why trina and ludacris are the same beast.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Avril thinks she's punk, in a valid-enough sense of the word; therefore she is punk.

― Aaron A., Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

(also, to complicate things: rock is inherently male, hip-hop may not be...sonically, that is)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

What is punk about Norah Jones? Avril and Pink I can sorta see.

― Kris (aqueduct), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Trina and Luda are totally different jess! just try and prove otherwise.

[Haha avril doesn't think she's punk, or claims she isn't at least half the time -- i think her marketing people are the ones who make the claim]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

haha okay, sterl you're right: trina is much more "masculine"...it was a poor comparison

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Spittin' is male I think, and especially running off the beat like Nas in "Made You Look".

[Jess: I mean Trina gets something (money) out of men, while Luda just goes through women. Its a different sort of hard -- Trina has plenty of sexuality, but it feels like no sexual drive because its subordinate to the money impulse, y'know?]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

sterl: you're right about spittin; i was thinking more in the "birth impetus" of hiphop, that sort of "sustained plateau" of dj's making breaks last 10, 20, 30 minutes. the trina thing is probably why i find her music so oddly unmoving.

(also, notice how eve has finally started to admit more "feminine" moments, at least into her public persona if not the music [where it may or may not have been present from the beginning, i'm not familiar enough] now that she's, y'know, a star in her own right)

(she still looks weird in a dress tho)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i probably spelled "impetetususus" wrong there

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 23 February 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: impeti vs impetodes

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

impetodes = v.punk name

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 February 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Curious!

― jm (jtm), Sunday, 23 February 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought "got a man" was incredibly feminine.

but i can see what you mean about there not being a "feminine" hip-hop production style (& pos. because there isn't a "masculine" one). Except that for example the beatnuts and that sound are possibly the most masculine coz I can hardly imagine a female rapper over them for the long haul, like there would be some cross-signal overload.

There also really aren't that many female producers either, tho, and certainly no "superstar" ones. Is there anything particularly feminine about the production on Northern State?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

wanksta!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe Christina is the punk. She can't turn around,pick up a paper or magazine or turn on the t.v. without being reminded how ugly,stupid,ho-bagish,ludicrous,and preposterous she is.
Her response:Fuck you.I'm beautiful.Every day even.

― Scott Seward, Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

But the punk in her video who sez "fuck you i'm beautiful" is surely not punk at all, correct? After all its rather silly to whine about how society views you when you put so much effort into being viewed just that way.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know what's punk but y'all punk bitches, that's fo' sure. Punk is metal without the guitar solos. None of these be punks.

Photo of Punk below:

http://www.limpbizkit.com/uploaded_media/fdfuresized.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

SHE thinks she's beautiful.And that's all that matters.That's the punk aspect to me.

― Scott Seward, Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

what's the difference between have an inflated self-esteem and being a punk then?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

having

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 23 February 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

A Wallet Chain.

― jm (jtm), Monday, 24 February 2003 00:23 (twenty-two years ago)

what's the difference between having an inflated self-esteem and being a punk then?

Gender.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 February 2003 00:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Dilbert: Are you being sarcastic?
Wally: I don't know any more.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 February 2003 00:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Britney Spears is more punk than Avril...

― sonic, Monday, 24 February 2003 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

why?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 24 February 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, seeing as Norah Jones won all the grammies, Avril must be the real rebel being put down by the Man.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 February 2003 07:45 (twenty-two years ago)

unlikely, punk was created by the man;)

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 24 February 2003 07:47 (twenty-two years ago)

commodofication of rebellion is a beautiful thing, aesthetically at least.

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 24 February 2003 07:48 (twenty-two years ago)

except when the clash did it. in which case it was blokey pub rock crap. style over content yo

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 24 February 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

but that's the man with a little "m". ;)

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 February 2003 07:51 (twenty-two years ago)

and since we each pick our own history of music, let's just pretend punk was created by the Shangri-La's.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 February 2003 07:52 (twenty-two years ago)

well ravi shankar is pretty punk rock, and i hear the punk rock gene does not skip generations.

― mallory bourgeois (painter man), Monday, 24 February 2003 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Talent genes almost always skip a generation, maybe even generations.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 February 2003 08:37 (twenty-two years ago)

well i guess i can think of points for against this arguement.
number one: ringo star's son is an amasing drummer (although was taught by keith moon)
number two: bob dylan's son, horrible.
and then to confuse everyone, john lennons kids, i'm not touching that one with a 50 ft pole.

i'm going to look for statistics for this one. i'm sure theres a harvard study somewhere.

― mallory bourgeois (painter man), Monday, 24 February 2003 08:50 (twenty-two years ago)

and since we each pick our own history of music, let's just pretend punk was created by the Shangri-La's

Damn I wish I'd written that.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

why?
-- Sterling Clover (s_clove...), February 24th, 2003.

Well , let's recap....the music industry has noticed what we call phases/cycles in music directly correlated to elementary school kids going to high school and changing their music preferences, i.e. the loss in popularity of NKOTB and gain of popularity of bands like Nirvana...This explains a lot in today's industry:
1) Justin going solo and working with the Neptunes with a more street sound
2) Christina Aguilera growing out of her teenage image and...hum...well...
3) Avril Lavigne and Michelle Branch (manufactured rebels)
So my point in saying that Britney Spears is more punk than Avril is because at least, Britney's got all the critics/genuine music aficionados against her and she does not give a fuck...whereas Avril, Kelly Osbourne and whoever else are all manufactured little punkettes...I would definitely have to go with Norah, who is way more punk (in her defying of the industry's young female prototype(she's only 23)) than any of those punk wannabes...anyone remebered how at the MTVs Avril just pulled the award off kelly (American Idol)'s hands...she's just trying too hard...i can't believe that she's a Canuck (being one myself)...

― sonic, Monday, 24 February 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Britney does too care.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

...for?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Norah = more punk, for causing more critical heartattacks than Avril.

Avril = less punk, for having to work so hard at trying to sneer.

Me = least punk, for actually taking the time to type this shit out.

― Neudonym, Monday, 24 February 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Vanessa Carlton is more punk rock:

Designing Women

Many a girl watching the Grammy Awards tonight will wish that she could be in some talented artist's shoes. And now she can.

Last week, three of the nominees unveiled strappy signature sandals that they had designed for Candie's, the footwear merchandiser.

Vanessa Carlton, whose "A Thousand Miles" is nominated for both record of the year and song of the year, doodled hearts and peace signs on the insole of her lace-up number. "It's an antiwar shoe," she said. "It was inspired by summer love in the 70's."

― david day (winslow), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

seven months pass...

Let's all just look at it this way guys arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics even if you win you're still a retard!

― Lyle Smock, Thursday, 9 October 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Sade trumps all.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 9 October 2003 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

pink is definately more punk rock. Pink's music isn't considered punk, but then again, punk is just doing what you want without caring about what other people think. Pink has a punk attitude and she sings from the heart. Avril Lavinge can can do what she wants, but she can't turn punk. She's too conventional and corrupted by society. She has become a trend...and through her, people are thinking that punk is certain ideal and fad, but it isn't. It's a way of life. It's an attitude, not the way you dress. Norah jones...hmm she could be punk. She's doing her own thing. She going against the norm and doing something that she likes. RIGHT ON! Yeah, i guess. But in all my punk cd collection, there's one r&b cd and that's pink, cuz she just emits this power that feels too punk to let go of.
Peace, love, empathy
MM

― harley hart, Saturday, 11 October 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Punk Is Doing What You Want,Not What Makes You Looks Like A Punk....

― Chaw Wei Arng, Monday, 20 October 2003 09:58 (twenty-one years ago)

seven months pass...

HEY!!!You punk!!!arvelyn rockz!!!!:-p

― Arviekny, Friday, 28 May 2004 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Avril is the most punk, and I should know. So I have answered this question and everyone should forget about it. If you don't agree with me...then... FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

― whatever, Tuesday, 8 June 2004 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/totp/features/wallpaper/800x600/pink.jpg

MORE PUNK

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

for a minute, I thought this was a Marissa Marchant-inspired thread.

― Kingfish Disraeli (Kingfish), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:04 (twenty-one years ago)

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