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she had some message written on the inside of her trenchcoat and they only showed her from behind - was it "fuck you norah jones"?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it was "My New Album Drops Sept. 11"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, "Sept. 18"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously, was it an antiwar statement or something?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Edmonton Journal says it read "Rock On" which is understandably the kind of political comment CBS does not want to condone.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I want to punch her.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

why chris?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

if you have to ask...

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I just can't stand her, no real reason. I think its the total package. Everytime I see her I get angry with her attitude. Who the heck does she think she is? And her band, ugh they all deserved a swift kick to the balls.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

if you have to talk about punching skinny 18-yr old kids because they're more successful than you...

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck man, she's a dumb teenager. she's NO DIFFERENT from any other 17/18 yr old from Buttfuck Ont, except people listen to her. She's a fucking high school drop out, so take her with a g. of salt.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

what's so wrong with teenagers from buttfuck ontario?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

They're all like Avril Lavigne.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"What was on Avril's coat?"

My urine.

Haha...sorry, someone had to do it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck man, she's a dumb teenager. she's NO DIFFERENT from any other 17/18 yr old from Buttfuck Ont, except people listen to her. She's a fucking high school drop out, so take her with a g. of salt.
-- Horace Mann (handsomishbo...), February 24th, 2003. (later)

these are some of the most laughably knee-jerk elitist classist ageist anti-punk pro-status quo statements ever made on ilm

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

why don't these dumb smalltown kids just go back to their crappy high schools and stop being in rock bands!?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, why don't they, dammit!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

trashing avril is hardly anti-punk.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

haha yeah, stick it to the man you fucking saddos

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

trashing people because they're young, rural drop-outs who make older people say "who the heck does she think she is" is heartily anti-punk

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Who cares what's punk and what's not punk in this debate? She's an annoying little knat who should be stepped on with all speed.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

fritz in OTM / horace in completely off the mark double shocka

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

So what's Avril gonna be like in 10 years when she's not famous anymore? My guess is bitter.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

She'll be dusting off her hits for the 4H county fair circuit, and she'll have gained 80 pouds.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't she most likely from an upper middle class upbringing?

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Is she even a drop-out? That's the first I'd heard of that

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't she most likely from an upper middle class upbringing?

-- Jonathan Williams (x...) (webmail), February 24th, 2003

how in the hell does this even follow?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

also, middle class people fronting on other middle class people for not being "real" = deeply sad

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't even like avril lavigne, but you knobs make me wanna stick up for her

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

What if she had surfaced in 1984? Would you hate her as much? I'm not going to buy any of her records or even watch her on TV - but she's not so bad ... Just two years ago Nelly Furtado was all the rage... I would have been thrilled to have Avril in her place. As long as teenagers need some drivel to listen to, I'll be content with this kind ..

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll give ya that -- she's nowhere near as irritating as Nelly Furtado.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Avril's about as punk as Bruce was trying to sing "London Calling". For all her tough chick posturing, deep down she really wants to be Celine Dion.

― Jeff K (jeff k), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

so, i have a question: do all of you "punkers" spouting these empty not-even-truisms really believe them? or it total pavlov time?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, I'll bite: outside of her arguable fashion tastes, what exactly makes Avril so Punk? Her music is as polished as silver!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't actually give a shit if she's punk or not, it's just ridiculous to hear people using anti-punk logic to tell me how un-punk she is

mark s, are you out there?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

he's taking a nap, fritz

what does that have to do with being "punk" alex?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

troll
1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." Compare kook. 3. n. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.
Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.
The use of `troll' in either sense is a live metaphor that readily produces elaborations and combining forms. For example, one not infrequently sees the warning "Do not feed the troll" as part of a followup to troll postings.
-- The Jargon File

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

jonathan, don't take this the wrong way, but you're possibly the densest person to ever post to ilm

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

regularly

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Wearing Chuck Taylors and a low-slung guitar doesn't make you "Punk," by the way.

Were it not for the accompanying visuals of her videos, her music is indistinguishable from virtually every other pop moppet clogging up the charts.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

She is so fucking punk rock that the very sight of her makes people wanna beat her up! You have to be really punk to get people to hate you so much.

― Scott Seward, Monday, 24 February 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

People wanted to punch Yahoo Serious during his fifteen minutes of fame too. Does that mean he was Punk?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Nelly Furtado is about 8,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times more enjoyable to listen to than Avril Levigne.

She is so fucking punk rock that the very sight of her makes people wanna beat her up! You have to be really punk to get people to hate you so much.

Nerds/goths/jocks/sluts/popular kids/everyone is punk!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Who said she was punk? Shes "punk-edged teen pop" which is a fuckova long way from actually being punk. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark S and Sterling have asserted that she (and Pink) are punk many times over.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

alex, you've yet to answer my question about how her music being "as polished as silver" (and i dunno, i've seen some pretty grotty silver, cf. my grandma's china closet) is inimical to her music being "punk"?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean who that I'm listening to has said that ....

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Strip away the sartorial trappings and listen to her music -- that's what we're debating, right? -- and tell me how it's Punk in any way, shape or form? Tell me with a straight face that it's not simply workaday pop!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

alex, i don't think you can honestly answer the question, at least in terms of giving me a working defn of "punk"s sonics!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I wasn't trolling! I asked a simple question about Avril at the grammys and some of our senior correspondents told me they wanted to punch her and piss on her.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 136 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Oh, i thought you were addressing me directly. Apologies.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

did he have the one with the cartoon fisherman bear drinking a six pack?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.ultimateflags.com/int/images/turkmenistan.gif

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(is my new desktop!!!)

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

See, now I would never wave that.

Are those roulette wheels on the side?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I see what you're saying above, alex, but that slope is pretty damn slippery. I think you just gotta give up on expecting the 77 punk uniform to mean the same thing to 18 yr-olds as it means to you.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The bottom one is a watermelon split in half.

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but it's that cantankerous old man thing -- I wanna grab 18 yr olds by their spikey, pin-peppered lapels or by their stylized faux-hawks and *SCHOOL THEM TO THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS*

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

to take yr metaphor, alex, the problem is that punk has no sovereignty. there is no visa application process to the world of punk (aside from the "cred" application, but you've gotta know/fuck someone to get a hold of that one). there are no definite borders. like all pop culture (and punk certainly qualifies these days), it's free floating for anyone to grab a hold of and twist and mutate -- even teenage girls from canada. and while i understand yr ire at this, it's also what keeps it a living thing -- those mutations, new affectations, reappropriations, etc., etc. wanna see a dead fucking genre? jazz. rules upon rules to follow cause the old folx grabbed it and still haven't let go (but i imagine norah's success on blue note might bend some ears back toward pop's way). and i know that you see all of this and i know that you understand, but you don't want the avril's of the world to encroach on yr territory. fair enough. but can you admit that genre negotiations can and will exist within punk?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

punk is still living?

― hello, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

no fishermen, jess, but his last band was called Dogs Playing Poker cause he already had a dogs playing poker t-shirt so it, like, worked out just perfect!

(this sounds snotty to my pops, but i love him and used to be in a southern rock band with him called Rock Bottom!)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

if they piss you off so much then maybe '77 style uniforms still do work perfectly well to inspire the desired effect in cantankerous old men! you're caught-22

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

alex sounds like they're having way more fun than you are

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

''wanna see a dead fucking genre? jazz. rules upon rules to follow cause the old folx grabbed it and still haven't let go''

erm...no!

its not all just a museum piece. there are some good recs (not only in jazz but everywhere elase too but we just don't have the time or at least i don't).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not saying that Punk was a militantly ruled, fenced-in community, patrolled by bloodthirsty snipers, but clearly Avril is not from the land of Punk despite trying to sneak across its borders by way of flimsily flying the colors.

I'd get more upset about this if I felt I could possibly be mistaken in some way, but I really am quite confident in my assertion that AVRIL LAVIGNE IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF PUNK ROCK IN THE SLIGHTEST!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

alex sounds like they're having way more fun than you are

Well, like they say...... IGNORANCE IS BLISS!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

(rim-shot, final curtain)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you everybody, goodnight!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

is the land of punk anti-immigration?

i don't find avril particularly representative of "punk" either alex, but so many punk-rockers have dual citizenship in the land of pop (ramones, clash, vibrators, only ones, etc), and there's no reason why it can't go both ways.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

dear godot, are you coming or what? love, ilx ps bring pie

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

and punch

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

(benny hill music, and we all chase eachother offscreen)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread has been made possible by local 813: air vents, detachable skirts, old men, handbags, cartoon punks, and sign obscurers.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

also flags. don't forget the flags.

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

....and the ever understanding citizens of Turkmenistan.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it too late for me to add my two cents? Whatever.
Avril Lavigne is punk the same way those funny-looking kids who hang out at the local mall or strip-mall are punk: It's totally "I think, therefore I am." I always thought that "Punk" was whatever YOU yourself made it out to be. If you wanted it to be serious vehicle for change, fine. But it's no less fine if you want it to be something cheap and tawdry. It's just as legitamate either way. Think about it, "punk's" numerous incarnations encompass both skinheads AND the racial tolerant; thrash merchants AND jazzbos; rich kids AND gutter snipes. If Avril says shes a punk, she can be a punk. It's no skin off my back.

― Charles McCain, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

*nickalicious has an epiphone*

punk is hip-hop! hip-hop is punk! They're two sides of the same movement! And therefore Avril = Punk just as much as Eminem = hip-hop! It's all so clear now!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

epiphany is the word you're looking for.

Epiphone sounds like some sort've device for communicating with epileptics.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

no matter what your perspective on this dicussion, comparing Eminem to Avril in the way you just did makes me ill.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't Epiphone Gibson's "budget" line of Guitars etc?

― Charles McCain, Monday, 24 February 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(thought bubble) The borders of Turkmenistan aren't *real* either of course.

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

TH!Z \/\//-\Z TEH B3ST B!T:

Oh for fuck's sake - fuck punk!

-- Kim (grimstitc...), February 24th, 2003.

J34H!1!!!1!

avr!l rulz fukc all yuo h@t@z

I (heart) avr!l threadz coz they're gr8!!1!1!11!!!

I AM M0R3 PuNK THaN aNY 0V YUO L@M3RZ C0Z I LUV PR0G ROX0R!1!1!1!1!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

BTW yes epiphone is gibson's cheapie guitar line EG my twin neck is an epiphone & it cost 600 quid "genuine" gibson twin neck = 3000 quid or something like that anyway

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

yeh - I was hardcore 'til I weakened by thinking about stuff.

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Reading this thread makes me want to hear Mikey Wild's "I Was A Punk Before You Were A Punk."

― Jeff Sumner (Jeff Sumner), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

bedtime snack = indie pop

no, indie pop is elevenses, clearly.

Now Avril vs Nelly Furtado, there's a thredd worth starting. Back in 2001, I thought she was the new Madonna, y'know. I've not been proved wrong yet.

Avril is as punk as Green Day or the Sex Pistols but not as punk as The Clash or The Levellers.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

BUT WAS ON HER GODDAMN COAT ALREADY?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

by all accounts it did indeed say "rock on".

can we resume normal service now and talk about something we usually talk about, like Av...oh, wait.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Was she wearing a bowtie and an ascot? That's a neat look, whatever it is.

― Epilady Ultra (Arthur), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 03:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I would like to address the fact that I have nothing on my shoulders, you fuXors.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha u r all gay lol

― Avril Lavigne, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 04:27 (twenty-two years ago)

BUT WAS ON HER GODDAMN COAT ALREADY?

http://www.weretwins.com/strikeforce:euler/capt1046050460

― Matt B. (Matt B.), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

This board is becoming embarassing. hahaha, all this fuss for "rock on"? "Fuck Norah Jones" is funnier.

― Andrzej B. (Andrzej B.), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 05:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, I think the problem may stem from you (and lots of other people) confusing "punk" with "punk rock."

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 06:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Sheesh.

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

They would've had to cut away from it cos they could've put "FUCK YOU" in her coat or something - it was filmed live, no time delay.

Though I thought it was always live.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the problem may stem with you (and lots of other people) confusing "punk" and "punk rock" with "good" and "interesting."

― Robbie Turner, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a new day. I've moved on from this thread. I think you all should as well. And I think Robbie Turner should eat a bowl of his own excrement.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

:-P

― Robbie Turner, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"From what I can tell, the Ramones did nothing to earn the right to be punk - they just got up and made a band. Whose music was no less
polished than Avril's (for the time, etc)....."

She'll have "earned" the right to be punk, then, when she does ANY of the above, which was exactly what the Ramones did to earn that right! She didn't start her own band, doesn't write all her songs, doesn't really play that guitar much if at all, and her music is glossy and overproduced. And I think those were cooties on her coat! Alex, you are correct. She may represent what punk has come to mean to those with no sense of history, or those who have never listened to what punk WAS, but she's not A punk.

― matt riedl (veal), Wednesday, 26 February 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

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