Daniel Perry is Wrong, even though he can sing well.

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i like broken, flawed, craggy, off tune, cigarettes and whiskey, scowl cream shout, stumble slur type voclaists, ones who fuck up or sound less then perfect- i think that some peoples obession with perfect pitch makes music hygenic and sterile. Im looking at Mr Perry of course, but others as well, so you know fite. look at norah jones thread on ile.

― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

also use this space to explain how peter pears, billie holiday and nina simone fit.

― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Each to their own. Kate likes Dirty Dronerock Boys. I like Filthy Freejazz Girls. Such is such.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the kind of singing you like is a worse cliche 40 years after Dylan than the kind of singing Dan defends, Anthony, even though I agree that perfection/imperfection has little to do with how good a pop vocalist is.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Things *I* tend to like in singing, having got all huffy with you - a sense of what words mean and how to deliver them; noticeable regional accents; a willingness to mechanically alter the human voice.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I like GOOD singing, whether it's Will Oldham off-key and warbly or Nina Simone getting down underneath the song and knockin' it out.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing about Dylan is that his voice isn't just craggy and fucked up--he makes it sound really different from record to record. Lay Lady Lay came on the radio the other day, and I was thinking about how deep his voice is on that track (and album), and he just used that style that one time.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I was recently talking to Frank Black (formerly Black Francis) and we were talking about how in the Pixies he was all screamy and that was swell and it worked and a lot of people could, y'know, identify with it, but then he dropped a big bomb on my and said that he's been going to a voice coach for the last 5 or 6 years.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

My favorite bands/musicians are Prince and THE CURE. I like PiL from the generic album on. I adore mid-era Ministry, My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult, Severed Heads, New Order, GOD, Skinny Puppy, and Smashing Pumpkins. I really wish people would stop throwing this fucking strawman argument around that I only like technically proficient singers.

That is all.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

You like Smashing Pumpkins?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, I do.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

okay, just wanted to make sure that wasn't a typo

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps Dan disapproves of singers who hide their inexpressiveness behind a claim of "authenticity"--whose (non)abilities at phrasing etc. do not make up for their lack of "chops"? At least, that's how I'd put it.

Dylan is misappreciated as a singer. He does some pretty unexpected and difficult things with his voice. See "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" where he drops about an octave suddenly in the verses--without going off pitch or cracking.

Charley Patton was similarly impressive without having a "pretty" voice. He knew his weaknesses and used the cracks in his voice to great advantage.

I think a good question is, who sings/writes songs inappropriate for their voice? I think Elvis Costello often writes tunes out of his range. Occasionally the resulting tension can benefit the song, but often (as in "God Give Me Strength") I just wish he would have found someone else to do the singing.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I like girls who take their shoes off when they listen to music and patently don't give a fuck.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I think a lot of dan's opinions on whether vocals are good or not (or his reasons as to why) have to do with his background as a trained singer.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

and that's OK really.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

THREE CHEERS FOR AMATEURIST! From henceforth I shall call you "Professionalist".

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

And I've said in the past that a lot of how I view vocalists comes from my personal experience as a singer, so let's through some cheers Julio's way, too.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

okay, just wanted to make sure that wasn't a typo

People do like the Smashing Pumpkins, Horace. QUITE A LOT in some cases. ;-)

Dan's first post said it all so I won't say any more -- it's a VERY strange misapprehension of Dan to say that about him, Anthony.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"People do like the Smashing Pumpkins, Horace. QUITE A LOT in some cases. ;-)"

Yeah, well, I always find that hard to believe. But I guess it proves my theory on why you shouldn't judge people based on their tastes.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Precisely. Now let me tell you why I think the demo of the otherwise unreleased song "Jennifer Ever" is one of the best Pumpkins tunes from the late eighties and...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Although I defend Dan's honor here, I don't share his taste in singers at all. I had a wonderful film professor named Robert Smith who I liked to imagine has usurped the Cure singer in the public eye.

But I just wanted to make sure we're all arguing on similar terms and not mischaracterizing anyone else's views.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Simon and Garfunkel rule.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

''And I've said in the past that a lot of how I view vocalists comes from my personal experience as a singer, so let's through some cheers Julio's way, too.''

OK I've never seen those statements or i can't remember 'em.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

(Would you prefer if I threw cheers at you rather than throughing them?)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

er...as long as its all cheers then its OK.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Also:

i think that some peoples obession with perfect pitch makes music hygenic and sterile.

This is wrong on so many levels. Do you really want a recording of Shane MacGowan doing Britten art songs? (Okay, possibly a bad example.) There's a reason that Michael Bolton and Aretha Franklin sound like shit when they try to sing Puccini; the music requires much more technical precision in order to work properly. I DARE you to find a "Madama Butterfly" recording that is hygenic and sterile because the singers sang it in tune.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

uh uh you can be slidey, hiccupy, growly and still be able to hear where your fucking voice is supposed to go on a chord, right, if that's the requirement set by the song? Where's this opposition?

― g.cannon (gcannon), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i want that macgowan lp so bad!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

(g.cannon makes a corollory point I completely agree with; the timbre of your voice can be seperated from how you're hitting the pitches.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Smashing Pumpkins were around in the 80s?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Rah. :-)

(And yes, they formed late eighties and starting demo recording shortly thereafter.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

But what did they have for breakfast they day they recorded that?

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a funny story, actually. Darcy was making muffins...

― Ned Ragette (nabisco), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

No, bagels. Good try, though. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I disagree w/Dan on a few things (I disagree with everyone on earth about a few things) but I don't think his arguments have ever been simplifiable (word?) as some of what this thread seems to be saying.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

("making muffins" hur hur hur)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no reason to believe that Dan Perry is wrong or can sing well (I ain't taking his word for it!). Though, if ILM had a contest where everybody had to karoake to "Smooth," I'm guessing his rendition would be one of the best.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no reason to believe that Dan Perry is wrong or can sing well (I ain't taking his word for it!).

*brag=ON*

Well, get paid to sing in a church choir, I sing with the BSO/Boston Pops and I'm one of the people regularly picked to do solos in my chamber group (including a quartet in a Bach motet with my wife this Sunday). So I think I'm decent, at least.

*brag=OFF*
*insufferable=VERY*

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

hee hee. I was curious if that was gonna inspire another resume. ;)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 22:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Of COURSE it was! Come on now.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

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