I Confess : What sucks most about your musical tastes and attitudes ?

And then I heard a song on the radio with sweet hip-hop riddims and I was like "HEY I LIKE THIS" then I found out that it was M.I.A. and I was just another dork who likes M.I.A.

Attitudes : Frequent snobbery towards people who only care for music as a background noise (the 12-CD crowd), as well as people who only care about a very narrow range of music (sometimes including me).

Also on ILM I'm definitely guilty of hyper-defensive anti-anti-rockism, taking almost any reference to something being rockist as a personal attack on anyone who's ever fallen in love with any song with a guitar on it. Also I tend to attribute a lot of people's dismissive attitudes here to snobbery, but, uh, I'm probably right ;).

Can't stand techno or electronica unless heavily diluted with pop (o.k. computer is about as electronic as I can stand). Same with rap ("3 feet high and rising" is my only rap album)

Can't get "real" jazz, although I like "jazzy" rock and "jazzy" pop singers (Sinatra, Nat Cole, Dean Martin, et al.).

I get annoyed with obscuranist listeners, although I'm secretely proud of the one or two obscure things that I listen to. Similarly, I can't get poeple who only like "indie" music, even though most of my interests are "indie-rock."

Also: I can't listen to Grateful Dead (& Phish, etc) just cause I hate the fans so much, even though I REALLY like some of the tunes.

My biggest problem is that I get angry when someone doesn't like something that I play for them, when they clearly SHOULD like it (dammit). If someone likes Garbage, they should like My Bloody Valentine MORE (dammit).

Why are we like this? Why does music do this to us?

I love that quote in Ned's Momus interview about intelligence and loneliness; that is the best thing about chart pop to me, sharing it with others. I am alone A LOT so maybe that also helps explain my tastes.

Attitudes: Sorry if it seems like I'm taking the high road here, but I have a very utilitarian view of music. It's something that helps people get through the day, like having a sturdy table to set your drink on. Some people spend considerable energy searching for the best, others could give a shit, neither has an impact on my life. That's why topics here about FANS and GOOD TASTE V. BAD TASTE make little sense to me. It's pretty much my main interest, but nothing about what is happening in music, either with artists or music fans, makes me angry or even irritates me. At all. Really! Something that makes me angry is the guy in the house behind me shooting stray cats because they leave footprints on his truck. Not how obsessive Belle and Sebastian fans are, or that Amerindie rockers wear dorkie glasses, or how Radiohead fans fail to understand where the band sits on the experimental music continuum, or even that most people just pick up on whatever is played on the radio.

The reality is, no matter what you are looking for in music, no matter what you need, it is out there somewhere. The way global distribution is set up now, "music" doesn't need to change, it's all happening, all the time. The challenge is in figuring out what you want, not finding it.

Not sure how I got from there to here, so, uh, I guess I've nothing to confess, as far as attitude.

So Tarden, do you like Radiohead - I mean, do you like absolutely everything that becomes popular, just because it's popular? Do you mean that's a rule that you apply intentionally, or just a sort of intuition that you have about yourself? Or were you just joking?

I'm with Tracer Hand on "the code for living", although I've become a bit more relaxed about it in the past few years (mainly for taking so much shit about dancemusic and Miles Davis, that after years you finally think "sod it!"). Still I must confess that this year I've felt "wounded" by what people close to me have said about "Discovery" and "10.000Hz Legend". ILM has been good in this sense too, there's a neat distancing effect that makes a put-down of something you love just less hard (although Killing Joke fans obviously feel different ;)

2nd one is obvious, I take sardonic pleasure in putting down "Rockism" and esp. the canonical artists *unless* they're The Rolling Stones or Patti Smith. (...and ask yourself how does he know all these artists? Because he has heard every single record and owns Sister Marquee White Power Ladyland! They're just stuck on a lower shelf than all techno/house albums ;)

. . . connected to my question to Tarden: cos Tarden, are you saying you have a religious attitude to pop, a leap of faith thing? Don't worry I'm not damning your idea with faint understanding.

What sucks? I don't like and can't get into hip-hop. I can't say that I lose sleep over it, but maybe I'm missing something. The interest in nouveau chart pop say, Destiny's Child or Britney, is something else I don't 'get'. The music is pleasant enough, but any attempts at criticism or analysis seem like compemplating the precentage of Nitrogen in air. Before too long you begin wondering about the marketing plan and forget the tune.

Tastes: most of my dislikes cause me no soul-searching at all, unlike some of the other respondents so far. The idea that I should worry about not liking Black Box is incomprehensible to me. But there are two vast areas of music which I believe are important, profound, and perhaps beautiful, but of which I cannot speak. They are Classical Music and Jazz. These are 'gaps' the size of canyons. I don't know that they'll ever be filled, or bridged.

Attitudes: I have one feature which is limiting and prescriptive - namely, an utterly nostalgic approach to music. Anything I liked once I must, it seems, like forever; and this makes it hard for me ever to 'move on'.

Yeah anyway like Mr Pinefox said, a real paradox. I also know that I'm not "getting" classical music...I even like some of it, have a couple of "favourites"...but I'd totally avoid discussing it with anyone who really seems to know what they're talking about. Uh, that's just not having confidence, conviction in one's own tastes, is that the kind of thing we're talking about here?

BUT! this question! back to this fucking question! I'D been (I now see) EVADING it absolutely! the thing that's wrong with my taste in music? Just OBVIOUS - that it is still affected by OTHER people's tastes. I'm thirty-(mumble) years old & i still do that thing where if yr talking to someone whose ideas you respect you wait 'til they've said their bit before yo say what YOU think of something. That's terrible!
But on the + side(?), i suppose it proves that music still has some "social" "relevence" in my life - I was pretty sure that was a thing of the distant past.

Because my parents were born in South Africa, I have this perpetual fear that I am a racist (because I was told so many times by PC American liberals that all South Africans are racist, therefore we must be racists by extension). And I fear that I cannot get into hip-hop or rap *because* I am a racist. I can actually get into white indie-boy (and girl) rap like the Beastie Boys, or Luscious Jackson, or Beck, but I can't get any further.

I suspect that it is more to do with the *texture* of rap and hip-hop, because I listen to music for texture and harmony, rather than than lyrics or melody. (Lyrics are probably *the* least important thing for me in the enjoyment of music, while they are probably *the* most important element, in fact that defining element, in rap.) When I heaar rap or hip hop that *is* "psychedelic" or textural or "stoner rap", (early De La Soul and Cypress Hill spring to mind as examples) it *does* stick to my ear and make me happy.

But still, I worry. Isn't it the most white, middle class, racist thing in the world, to *worry* about being a racist?

This is making my head spin

However : even if I expressed no desire to listen to any "black" music, I wouldn't classify myself as a racist. There's a substantial difference between saying "*I* don't like this" and "This is (objectively) bad". It might be racist to assume that rap or hip- hop is simply terrible music, it's a different matter entirely to accept that this type of music doesn't do what *you* want music to do. That said, the rap and hip-hop I've heard has been satisfying on a sonic level, while pretty much failing to really speak to me on a personal level. But, like I mentioned above, I might download a Roots or A Tribe Called Quest (f'rinstance) song in a moment that could change all that. I haven't enjoyed any local rap or hip-hop that I've heard, perhaps that's something I should try and address. My lack of identification with these songs is probably a major obstacle. Because of the racial relations in my country ( still rife with tension, although definitely lessening ) I'm aware that my cultural experiences in South Africa differ wildly ( in most cases ) to the experiences of the people making this music. But if said music doesn't connect with me, should I strain to appreciate it in the name of, what, Political Correctness? I don't believe my relationship with any black person that I might meet would hinge on my enjoyment of hip- hop. Nor do all black people listen to rap and hip-hop. I apologize for the rambling, but these are things I have to order in my mind.

And Nick- we're here for you.

As for fear of hip-hop, I don't think anyone need feel that it's strictly a race issue. Nor is it really a musical issue. I think for many, it's an issue of culture and cultural content---the association of much mainstream hip-hop with attitudes that border not only on misogyny or homophobia but also materialism and anti- intellectualism and etc. etc. This can be a huge barrier with appreciation of popular music, which tends to put a lot of emphasis on the listener's association with the artist as an individual whose personal expression is worthwhile---and particularly hip-hop, which tends to be more about lifestyle and attitude and verbal content that music per se. This probably explains why non-hip-hop-listening indie kids tend to dig "positive" hip-hop acts---De La Soul, Tribe, etc.--- who general presentation is a few notches closer to the sort of reserved, cerebral model so favored among indie folk.

All of which is to say: that's most of why *I* don't dig hip-hop, and as a black person, I think I can cast the race issue aside.

i think i like some mainstream "negative" hip-hop. i like the beats, the samples, and the use of voices. i sometimes enjoy the emotions associated with the "negative" attitudes. i like big black too. so do a number of "reserved, cerebral" indie rockers. (did we go through punk so we could have reserved and cerebral?)

Anyway... I've been thinking more on the issue, and wondering what it is about the music that doesn't engage me. What is important to me in music, in descending order is 1) texture 2) harmony (and interesting harmonics) 3) melody 4) rthythem (can't even spell it, how can I appreciate it) 5) lyrics.

The more I think about hip hop or rap, I realise that it's nothing even to do with race, or with culture, but simply that the *principle* elements of the genres - lyrics and rhtyhm - are the two musical elements least important to me.

I don't seek it out...but then I don't seek out anything. But when I hear it I find the lyrics amusing (in the same way as the writings of Stewart Home).

After all that, I don't even sympathise with Cobain, before you go thinking.

This is interesting to me because most characteristics of pop music that shift units are easily identified, analyzed and critiqued by those who frequent this board (there are a lot of smart people hanging out here!) There is no loss of words in explaining Britney, or even Creed.

The violence in hip-hop is easy to explain, at least in terms of the U.S. Violence is everywhere, so why not in music? People get some kind of visceral thrill from hearing the description of carnage; same way Pulp Fiction got the blood pumping, or Doom or Quake or whatever.

The misogyny is tougher. I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of those who bought Dre's 2001 are men. If it were all men listening to this stuff, then I'd have to say most guys hearing those lyrics are getting some kind of assurance from them. Having their fear of women relieved by song after song putting the "hos" in their place, reducing half the population to nothing more than "something to poke on."

Eminem sold like ten million records, which just can't be done if everybody is thinking either "Hmmm, this is an interesting portrait of a disturbed individual…what an artful statement" or just ignoring the words altogether, which are in your face and high in the mix for the whole album. In addition to chuckling at his clevery wordplay, lots of people are FEELING what Eminem is saying, on some level. They have to be. Maybe they're all just impressionable kids, maybe not. But critics discussing Eminem have not scratched the surface of his appeal, I don't think.

it wasn't made to appeal to me! its for the kidz.

part of the reason that someone like ke$ha makes me so pissed off is because her schtick is EXACTLY that which always has appealed to me - trashy party girl on banging club pop tracks. so it really really annoys me to see her getting it so wrong.

rilly sometimes music SHOULDN'T be for you. i used to rant about that ed banger/justice stuff until i realized that i was old man yelling at cloud. it wasn't made to appeal to me! its for the kidz. that's why i hate when people go on and on about how awful some animated movie they just saw was. hey dumbo you are 30 years old! the movie is rated G! its for 5 year olds! sorry it didn't meet your lofty standards. and 5 year olds ENJOY disposable crap.

― scott seward, Tuesday, February 8, 2011 11:23 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

To some extent I am starting to feel this way about people who bitch about the star wars prequels.

rev otm - WAKA broke through in a landscape where commercial rap = soft-serve, lightweight slop like drake and b.o.b, and most non-chart rappers emphasised lyrical prowess. his kind of raw aggressive energy (and ability to channel it as an aesthetic rather just a one-off random song) marks him out as a bit of a one-off atm.

― lextasy refix (lex pretend), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 16:24 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

Forgive me here cos I'm out of my depth, but isn't this what Lil Jon and people from that scene have also been doing too? I dunno, when I heard Flocka, I liked it for all the reasons you mentioned, but I'd assumed there was a whole style of music that did this kind of thing?

Yah, but there's a good intervening half a decade there.

assume they just mean that they find enough good new shit to keep them occupied, rather than a stance or w/e - not endorsing that but it's easy enough to do

Yeah, that about sums it up. And of course, it doesn't mean that I *never* listen to old music. For one, I still listen to old music that was once new to me. But it's rare that I actively seek out older stuff I haven't heard.

to some extent I do kind of understand chris's POV - a lot of rappers in the last few years sound like they're going out of their ways to be obnoxious: arrogance, commodity fetishism and dunderheaded gangsta mentally all play a part in this. While this is obviously the point and the attraction for a lot of modern rap fans, I can see how older fans might have trouble with Flocka's steez, as opposed to, say, Chuck D's brand of call-to-arms rap, or Q-Tip's fluffy quirkiness. Flocka and Gucci are grotesque cartoon anti-heroes who are not necessarily likable in a buddy kind of way. They probably don't give a fuck if you don't agree with whatever it is they're saying. So this is really something one has to buy into, otherwise I can see how it would be totally annoying.

― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Tuesday, February 8, 2011 11:12 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is what im trying to say, excuse my grumpiness in my first post!

I mean, Lil Jon and that whole style were well out of style by the time Waka emerged. Even Jon himself has been for years focused more on making party hits than street music.

xxp

x-post: I suppose I have to admit that even I realize Lil Jon hasn't been real prominent for a while.

Waka sounds like more of the same stuff I keep being repulsed by when I check in with what ILM rap fans like, or when I pay attention to what's rolling down the street. I probably have a skewed idea of where rap is commercially, since ILM really is my main exposure to the genre these days.

Maybe try Currensy?

Good suggestion. For a while, I was recommending the Knux to people who like hip-hop but don't like its most popular current iterations.

ilm rap fans like a real range of stuff? WAKA is hardly representative when other faves include, like, curren$y and lil b and the jacka and na'tee and yelawolf

and ANGEL HAZE <3

jeez

I think the point about Lil Jon just underscores how quickly everything is liable to and does change in rap.

maybe its because im getting old and there have been some times at my bar where i put on the old-skool hip hop on sirius and the young kids have no idea who the older artists are, i mean if your a hip hop fan how can you not know Eric B, Public Enemy etc?

almost half of this list is p trad sounding, and around 100% of this one is. all 2010 releases.

also i dispute that ian was made fun of :P

why should they?

it's totally a vow of mine never to act outraged or disbelieving when some kid says he's never heard/heard of [legendary act]. (unless it's j0rdan and madonna because WTF.)

i don't think anyone is required to know anything about anything

the same reason why i would want to learn about new hip hop Lex. I dont act outraged, just surprised. yeah but wouldn't you think Eric B and not knowing who WU-TANG was would be a WTF?

see Raekwon. yay. someone i know. I also like Rick Ross.

maybe everyone in your bar hates rap music. like you!

nah i dont think so, with their baggy pants and godamn sideways hats.

you have a bar?

maybe your bar is a gay bar! does everyone smell nice?

If I were a politician, I guess I'd something like "I care too much."

My biggest problems are a) I'm too hung up on melody, which means all kinds of less melody-driven music largely pass me by (blues and funk would be two prominent examples), and b) I'm too much of a list-maker, or too much of a cannon person; I too easily discard music that isn't a candidate for a Top 100, or isn't going to be saved on my permanent hard drive. Lots of "pretty good" music ceases to exist with me.

Um, canon. There may be a song or two about cannons that I like too, I'm not sure.

http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/0074/c47ac3fb-93c5-49f9-8970-6fd575bf8b3e.jpg

i dont have a bar, i work at one a few nights.

someone make me a playlist of newer hip-hop? i will be forever grateful, and make you an old bastard one.

I don't really care about personality, I have no particular interest in music being played live, I'm not especially interested in hearing a bunch of songs by the same person,

Don't think any of these attitudes suck though, they're just what they are

xp: Not gonna make a whole playlist right now, but see what you think of this.

that kyleon verse is so dopeeeeeeeeee

verse of the month

we shld do Hip Hop Quotable thing, a verse of the month rolling thread

i could listen to more old music, more new music, more music made by people very different to me culturally, more music with a different order of priorities to what i recognise as my preference...but i tend to feel like i do or have done these things to a reasonable extent already tho obv there is always something else to hear/learn/consider theoretically. i do want to do all of those things more but i don't really want to do them based on people's recommendations. instead i want to discover them more 'accidentally' or indirectly and form opinions without reading anything for/against beforehand. something about that is good but something about it also sucks (just as being selfish is often bad but sometimes necessary).

probably a bigger source of frustration is that i'm nowhere near as much of a musician as i would like to be and that has an effect on my tastes and attitude that may cause them to occasionally suck (not in the 'i should value lyrics or singing or melody more than other stuff' sense, more a 'i want to be more confident about and back up the arguments i do make with more technical knowledge of Music from an academic perspective').

xp: Yeah, start it.

ok rev, thats pretty fuckin awesome.

^___^

this has been the most civilized & erudite goon dogpile in years

see stuff like that i can get with, its mostly those shouting things i cant. their flow reminds me of something, cant quite place it.

old man yells at shout rap

would read a Sickest Beat of the month thread

i like that wiz khalifa fella.

just changed my username, thanks.

I like that Wiz Khalifa fella, too.

so i guess its not all new hip hop that i dislike.

YOU GUESSED RIGHT!

scott you never struck me as a hip hop fan.

Scott is an everything fan.

i could listen to more old music, more new music, more music made by people very different to me culturally, more music with a different order of priorities to what i recognise as my preference...but i tend to feel like i do or have done these things to a reasonable extent already tho obv there is always something else to hear/learn/consider theoretically. i do want to do all of those things more but i don't really want to do them based on people's recommendations. instead i want to discover them more 'accidentally' or indirectly and form opinions without reading anything for/against beforehand. something about that is good but something about it also sucks (just as being selfish is often bad but sometimes necessary).

Oddly (or not?) enough, this is pretty much where I'm at at present, at least in general terms. But I also tend to see this in both terms of age as Scott identifies it earlier in this thread combined with a generally much more relaxed philosophy about music (and to a larger extent art and culture, however you want to define it) that I've happily settled into over the past few years. I suspect it was the logical reaction to the overdose of my twenties on such stuff; my thirties was more of a conscious turning away and I'm reaching forty feeling a certain equanimity about it all.

If I tried to keep up with everything I'm 'supposed' to, I would have no time. I really would much rather have relaxed evenings idly reading a book, sometimes listening to music and sometimes not at all. I suppose an earlier self would think that sucks but my current one -- which always liked to do that anyway -- is resolutely unconcerned.

oh yeah there was another thread a bit like this where i said one problem is that i'm letting things like spotify and last.fm have too much control over what i hear and how. i might exclude stuff because it's not immediately available how i want it, i'm listening to some stuff just so it appears higher in my last.fm stats. probably too contrived an approach altho it has been useful as i do get overwhelmed by the choice and need these exercises or motivations to listen sometimes.