Shakespeare ---> Olivier ---> John Lydon ---> me ---> my dad

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Real email today from my dad:

subject: rock and roll question

Geoff,
OK, is Iggy Pop or somebody like that who used the Olivier Richard III as a model for his performance?
dad


Say something interesting about the Olivier/Rotten thing. If this thread is funny or interesting or likely to confuse him I'll mail it back to him. (If not I'll just tell him)

g.cannon (gcannon), Monday, 3 March 2003 22:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, that most recent Julian Temple doc made a pretty good case for a de facto link betwixt Rotten/Larry-as-Richard-III. Dunno if I can add anything more interesting than that.

Lee G (Lee G), Monday, 3 March 2003 22:46 (twenty-three years ago)

that julian temple doc made a good case for temple to be chased naked thru the gobu desert w.a giant cattleprod

mark s (mark s), Monday, 3 March 2003 22:52 (twenty-three years ago)

oh mark I kiss you I know you'd come thru!

Dad'll love it!

g.cannon (gcannon), Monday, 3 March 2003 22:58 (twenty-three years ago)

trade you a gobi for a knew...

g.cannon (gcannon), Monday, 3 March 2003 22:59 (twenty-three years ago)

an age ago, i had a long email discussion w.frank kogan and others abt the way filth/fury uses all those ancient comedians: if i can find it i'll forward it to you geoff

the idea was taken from a (much better) punk doc made by paul tickell (which used clips from the TV version of quatermass and the pit)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 3 March 2003 23:04 (twenty-three years ago)

where can I get a copy of that documentary? (not filth and the fury, the other one you mentioned)

Lydon talks about this in his book, so I don't think the idea originated with either of them.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 08:40 (twenty-three years ago)

it was shown on the bbc but i forget its name currently

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 10:45 (twenty-three years ago)

That documentary was on BBC2 circa 1995. It featured rather too many clips of Quatermass, IIRC & I can't recall the significance. It drew heavily on Jon Savage's "England's Dreaming" in stressing the artiness & "queerness" of early punk & the Bromley scene; also the influence of mod bands like the Small Faces on Cook & Matlock.

The influence of people like Max Wall & Wilfred Bramble on Lydon's style is missed by those such as Greil Marcus who want to place them in the Situationist tradition. Hear also Peter Cook singing "Bedazzled" - could almost be JL

bham, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 10:48 (twenty-three years ago)

the significance of quatermass was that it was funny and insightful — marcus mentions in traces also (its american namec is 5 million years to earth)

"The influence of people like Max Wall & Wilfred Bramble on Lydon's style is missed by those such as Greil Marcus who want to place them in the Situationist tradition." The two kinds of stuff aren't at all incompatible: the Sits were often very funny; Max Wall and Wilfred Bramble were also pretty scary sometimes. This merely assumes the Sits are some Great Pompous Unreachable High Art Dealio, as opposed to a bunch of angry kids having fun throwing stuff around. The Marcus book is an assault on lame-ass theories of "influence" anyway (arguably a not a successful assault, since people who've read it end up using phrases like "those such as Greil Marcus who want to place them in the Situationist tradition" — ie pretty much missing the point): oddly enough Temple's error-filled and dishonest suck-up job assaults no lame-ass theories of "influence".

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 11:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Hear also Peter Cook singing "Bedazzled" - could almost be JL

Yes! Watching 'Bedazzled' over xmas I was struck again by how Lydonesque Cook is in that film - even down to those natty square hipster glasses - especially at the end when he is raging against God.

(GM must be aware of Wilf Brambles as punkah-precursor, presumably, cos he edited the Lester Bangs anthology where LB says that WB is the punkest thing about 'Hard Day's Nite'.)

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 12:36 (twenty-three years ago)

watching the cook stuff at xmas (esp the fact of derek and clive live as studio soundtrack to pistols recording) i wondered abt writing something to compare/contrast how PC dealt with/threw off the legacy of being a good-looking kid from a posh school with a diplomat for a dad, and joe strummer ditto — successes/failures etc

(the piece ran into the sand a bit bcz i felt heartless giving JS any kind of a harsh going-over in the circs, even tho the ONLY genuinely punk-respectful acknowledgment wd be an argument, a fightback...)

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:44 (twenty-three years ago)

full extended mark s ILM rant abt FatF on this thread

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Wow, never read that before - brilliant, Mark.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:57 (twenty-three years ago)

(haha note careless use of i-word by self in ref lydon)

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:57 (twenty-three years ago)

i found the main emails and forwarded them to geoff: they're a bit huge (and also cover some of the "rant" territory above), and i can't yet find the replies — from frank, s.reynolds, don allred and others — but if i have a spasm of even-more-than-usual vanity i'll post em

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 14:19 (twenty-three years ago)


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