'The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars' vs. 'Diamond Dogs'

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'Diamond Dogs'

― dave q, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 12:26 (twenty-three years ago)

a) ‘D2’ starts off exact same as ‘Shout at the Devil’.
b) Opening lines are equally great. (If you insist on being on the worst singer and lyricist in history then your opening lines have to be pretty fuckin’ spectacular to make up for it)
c) First ‘track proper’ on D2 starts with fuzzy diad gtr riff, which for various reasons signified the destruction of society itself among other things. At the time they thought it (the ‘destruction’) would be fast, now we see it as slow but no less sure. (I’m not saying we ‘mind’ or anything, we think it’s great, don’t get the wrong idea) ‘ZS’ begins with some ominous apocalyptic mood music that was produced on an incredibly tight budget
d) Look, it’s just BETTER! It just IS it just IS it JUST IS!!! OK?
e)‘ZS’ DOES however have Mick Ronson on it. The gtr sounds on ‘D2’ are neat but I get the feeling that DB would respond to anything technical said about them with “Haha well I’m crap yes.” (Implying – a) [I really HOPE this is not the case] “Only proving my theory viz. the electric gtr’s sig. powers are now cultural not aural [see ‘c’ – ‘d2’ title track is where he tried to make this point in big letters as he always does cuz he’s English, but being not remotely as fuckin’ smart as he thinks he is (ie English) he disproved his own point because the GTR RIFF itself (combine theory & praxis like that and you’re just asking for fuckin’ trouble, but that early on the record – has DB ever played cards, I wonder? Oh yeah, cool canasta!) completely overshadows everything he ever was or could be as an artist or cultural force or human being. But that’s OK, same is true viz gtr riff vs you + me + everybody) so I am bravely disrupting the hierarchy of technique by inverting the…” shut up shut up, or b) “I tried REALLY REALLY hard, I did! But it’s awful, isn’t it! HA HA! I’m yet another limey gaywad who’s just laughing out the other side of my mouth all the time at you. If you say you like something I’ve done then you’re an idiot cuz it’s all just a big joke and I didn’t even mean to do it anyway!” WTF is the deal w/ rhyming slang anyway? Using slang words that have MORE syllables than the words they’re replacing? Only in a society where everyone’s more like diseased, autocannibalistic hamsters who’ve been left in their shit-flecked cage for months than actual people could such self-immolating insularity assume the zenith of human aspiration. I could be totally mistaken though. If I ever meet him and say “Hey, I like the gtr bit at the end of ‘Sweet Thing’” and he just modestly said “You like it huh? Thanks, I had fun doing that one” or better “Wow! You’re one of the only people who does! I MEANT for it to sound like that, I did about 50 takes until I got JUST the RIGHT gear-grinding noise, I will defend that gtr solo to the death and will fight anyone who says different!”), then I’ll renounce everything I ever said on this board ever. Well, OK maybe half of it.
f) Every DB record has a few tracks that, admit it, you don’t ‘really hate’ them per se but you wouldn’t give a shit if they ‘lived or died’, put it that way. Maybe you’d whistle and look other-wayward if they had a seizure, or ‘forget’ to give them their medication, but you wouldn’t actually pull the plug. (Unless there were a 100% chance you wouldn’t be caught or even suspected). “Watch That Man”, “Word on a Wing”, “Andy Warhol” (NEVER mention ‘sleep’ in a song that’s already slower than pissing in front of the gf’s dad, ie look what that did for Catatonia’s career), “Running Gun Blues” (actually I would kill that one and turn myself in and confess just so I could go to court and laugh at the victim’s family). The one on ‘D2’ is “Rock’n’Roll With Me”. I can’t think of what it is on ‘ZS’ right now but suppose we take the singing from “Lady Stardust” and “Soul Love” and “It Ain’t Easy” and combine that all into a hideous acappella mashup and say it’s that.
g) Endings. I’ve got a really long answer worked out for this one but now I’ll just say “brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah – brah” like Tommy Lee…bringing us back to point ‘a’ like an endlessly circling skeletal family…

(btw totally OT but ironic 'anyway' - IRL, I fuckin' HATE dogs. Like really, desperately passionately hate them. I wish the chick in Ms 45 had shot the fuckin' mutt and ate it)

― dave q, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 12:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Look, it’s just BETTER! It just IS it just IS it JUST IS!!! OK?

Please stop hitting me! Ok, ok! I'll say anything, just make the pain stop! I like Diamond Dogs better! I've had dirty dreams about my mother! I planned the 9/11 attacks!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 12:35 (twenty-three years ago)

'I planned the 9/11 attacks'

'Rock'n'roll suicide' vs 'not rock, but genocide'?

― dave q, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 12:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I still choose "Ziggy Stardust" although I would say the gap is narrowing down because that album is the one David Bowie album from the 70s (although my initial 70s favourite by him when I first started checking out his back catalog) that grows less with every listen.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Diamond Dogs:
-cover
-atmosphere
-brah-brah-brah coda
-Sweet Thing/Candidate/Sweet Thing (reprise)

― willem (willem), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Back when I was a teenager, I would have probably said 'Ziggy' but yeah, I do like 'Diamond Dogs' a lot more, now. It has a much longer lasting replay value, too -- I can barely listen to 'Ziggy' anymore these days, I just get bored. Have 'em both on vinyl ('DD' has much better artwork too) and I remember once listening to 'The Chant of the Ever-Circling Skeletal Family' for a few hours before I realized that the record was skipping. I was probably stoned at the time, now that I think about it. OTM about the 'blah but not completely objectionable' trax on every Bowie rec (I never liked 'Warhol' much on 'HD' but the Dylan one was even worse) Then again, a track everyone seems to think was 'blah' ('Holy Holy') is one of my fave songs by him ever. Re: 'Sweet Thing', it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't remember making it at all.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Re: 'Sweet Thing', it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't remember making it at all.
why?

btw. the Candidate-demo on the Rykodisc-reissue is grebt! and quite different from the version sandwiched between the sweet thing songs...

― willem (willem), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 13:57 (twenty-three years ago)

a) ‘D2’ starts off exact same as ‘Shout at the Devil’.

Not to split hairs or nothing, but that's because "In the Beginning" on Shout At the Devil is meant as an relatively obvious homage to the Diamond Dogs album.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 14:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Geeta's post pretty much tells it like it is for me. And "Sweet Thing/Candidate" just gets better and better and better. The "I'm glad that your older than me/makes me feel important, and free/does that make you smile?/well, isn't that me?" bit used to make me nauseous when I was a teen, now I love it. I lived it, ha ha. And "Rock 'n' Roll with Me" is kinda charming--it's such a nothing, cliched lyric but he sings it with such gusto! Also--that great acoustic part in "Big Brother"--"I know you think you're awful square but you made everyone and you been everywhere"--and the way the song comes crashing in again. Love it.

― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Arthur hits the nail on the head with the appeal of the "Big Brother" part -- but you left off the concluding lyric of that sequence, that's the mindblower. ;-)

Thing with Ziggy is that it's the Sgt. Pepper's of his career, ie the album that's so praised/overpraised/hyperpraised that eventually it's stuck in a context that traps it. My own favorite album of his is "Heroes".

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Also, three cheers for "Dodo", the "Velvet Goldmine" of Diamond Dogs. And the "Shaft"-style guitar and strings combo on "1984" had me expecting way too much from Young Americans. Not that I don't love that album, I was just expecting a much more polished soul record.

― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:10 (twenty-three years ago)

The answer's Tanx.

― Adam Bruneau, Thursday, 6 March 2003 01:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry to be late to the party, but it's got to be "ZS" if only for the orgasmic Mick Ronson freak-out at the end of "Moonage Daydream"...a track that Alan Moulder should have stayed the fuck away from.

― Erick H, Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:03 (twenty-three years ago)

*confused*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Diamond Dogs is the only Bowie album I don't own. So I can't decide. Someone convince me to go out and buy Diamond Dogs tomorrow.

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:49 (twenty-three years ago)

buy Low instead

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:51 (twenty-three years ago)

again? ok.

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:55 (twenty-three years ago)

yes - AGAIN!! ha ha ha - actually, why don't you own DD already? it IS a classic. AM i to assume you own the Tin Machine albums - and NOT DD???!!?

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:58 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, and even the live one.

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:59 (twenty-three years ago)

ok, then, here's my attampt at convincing you: if you're already an album away from being a completist anyway, DD is NOT the one to exclude. Trust me.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 6 March 2003 06:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Someone convince me to go out and buy Diamond Dogs

It's fucking brilliant. What more do you need to know?

Seriously, I can't think of another Bowie album to exude such a palpable atmosphere of dread (apart from maybe Scary Monsters). Moreover, it *RAWKS*, not least due to the inclusion of both the epic title track and, of course, "Rebel Rebel," to say nothing of the sweet balladry of "Rock'n'Roll With Me" and the apocalyptic hustle of "1984." My favorite album of his by light years and light years. Morever, anyone who claims to be a "Goth" and doesn't own it is a fucking poseur.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 6 March 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

It's fucking brilliant. What more do you need to know?

Well, I don't consider it among his best 70s albums. But everything Bowie did in the 70s (except "Pin Ups" and possibly "Young Americans") was great anyway.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 6 March 2003 16:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Morever, anyone who claims to be a "Goth" and doesn't own it is a fucking poseur.
Hmmm. Apparently I'm not the only one who hears something Cure-ish in the intro to "Candidate".

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 6 March 2003 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...

I love the song, but couldn't get into the album. I mean "chant of the ever-circling skeletal family" (I probably got that wrong) is a fantastic title for a song, but as a song its...well, its pretty crap, isn't it?

So....Ziggy Stardust. And I don't think its over-praised fwiw.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I vastly prefer "Aladdin Sane", but, yeah I'll take Ziggy over "Diamond Dogs." The pseudo-Orwellian overtones are just claptrap, and not scary at all. That said, I'll take "Sweet Thing/Candidate" over the other album tracks, mostly for Bowie's wonderfully inept guitar solo.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

This is getting too stupid. "Diamond Dogs" is an interesting album with a lot of great tracks, but "Ziggy Stardust" is one of Bowie's definite masterpieces and there is no way that his half-finished rock opera about 1984 will ever be able to compete against the best album of the entire glamrock era.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

So I take it you've changed your mind from when you posted this above, Geir?:

-- Geir Hongro (...), March 4th, 2003 8:14 AM

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Ziggy is better, although Diamond Dogs is good...but yeah it's overplayed so I think people start to say things like Diamond Dogs is better in the same way that I say that Presence is better than Led Zep IV when I know in my heart it's not true.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

But yeah, Ziggy is better. "Starman", "Ziggy Stardust", and "Suffragette City" are better than any three songs on Dogs.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, "Diamond Dogs" isn't growing particularly on me either. I still consider "Ziggy" my third favourite Bowie album, behind the first two Eno albums, but way above the rest.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

two years pass...

God, I still think Ziggy Stardust is as best as David Bowie ever got.

― Bimble, Monday, 3 September 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)

the version of SWEET THING off 'cracked actor' is obviously the best thing ever, but no ...ZS wins it by miles.

― pisces, Monday, 3 September 2007 13:19 (eighteen years ago)

I love the song, but couldn't get into the album.

Exact reverse for me: love the album, can't get into the song. Title track = worst song on Diamond Dogs.

Diamond Dogs definitely better than Ziggy, though. It's just more complex, got a lot more going on, more sonically interesting, more paranoid. Sweet Thing/Candidate is probably the best track he ever did. In the top three anyway.

And yet Station To Station is still the best ever Bowie album.

― Zelda Zonk, Monday, 3 September 2007 13:21 (eighteen years ago)

Seriously, I can't think of another Bowie album to exude such a palpable atmosphere of dread (apart from maybe Scary Monsters).

I guess Alex scares easily. I find most of the album brittle if not camp, "Sweet Thing/Candidate" useful as production/mixing exercises. For dread "Art Decade" and "Subterraneans" are much better.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 3 September 2007 13:21 (eighteen years ago)

I don't get dread from "Art Decade". "Subterraneans" maybe, although for it's more an aching sorrow. DD is both camp and dread-laden.

― Zelda Zonk, Monday, 3 September 2007 13:25 (eighteen years ago)

What's the best track on Ziggy Stardust

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 3 September 2007 13:58 (eighteen years ago)

i still think that mark prindle was 1,000% OTM when he said that in the end ziggy stardust really sounds like an elton john record. which is far from a BAD thing -- and probably means that elton deserves much more respect from the folks who cream over ziggy stardust (i mean, bernie taupin isn't THAT much worse a lyricist than david bowie is he?!?)

― Eisbaer, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

Come now. Bowie may be hit and miss as a lyricist, but he has written a hundred times more memorable lines than Bernie Taupin.

― Zelda Zonk, Monday, 3 September 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

Diamond Dogs still rules, you fools.

― Alex in NYC, Monday, 3 September 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

I don't care if Bowie is hit or miss - when he's good (Life on Mars?, for example), he's amazing.

― Nathan, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 00:37 (eighteen years ago)

Freak out in a moonage daydream

My neighbors are going to call the cops soon. I'll get taken away to jail.

― Bimble, Sunday, 16 September 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

Can Bowie save us now?

― Bimble, Sunday, 16 September 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

Allow for the stupids in the apartment underneath me

― Bimble, Sunday, 16 September 2007 17:44 (eighteen years ago)

They've ne'er even know Velvet Underground and I want them to die for it with their goddamn global warming hog SUV's.

― Bimble, Sunday, 16 September 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

FREAK OUT IN A MOONAGE DAYDREAM OH YEAH

― Bimble, Monday, 17 September 2007 00:56 (eighteen years ago)

seventeen years pass...

To promote the re-release of the Ziggy Stardust album, Ryko first issued a combined LP and CD Press Kit (Promotional Only) featuring a faux-RCA black vinyl LP with intentional added surface noise (not to be confused with the clear vinyl commercial release) and a picture disc CD inside a plastic pouch in the gatefold jacket*. The Press Kit also included two official Ryko press releases, a photocopy of the Rolling Stone article which ranked Ziggy Stardust as the 6th best album of the last 20 years, and a promotional glossy photograph containing two images of David Bowie as Ziggy Stardust taken by Sukita in August 1972.

― scott seward, Thursday, 26 September 2024 18:25 (one year ago)

https://i.discogs.com/cPpPF5Anx_fZq3zFQbFVo2xyDLHxJ5H7rbp2km8jppc/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:590/w:593/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ2OTUw/NzQtMTM3MjUxMTk4/OS00MzAzLmpwZWc.jpeg

https://i.discogs.com/C-aoQjDnTXAKIfpL5mHfRavgdE8-jie1-kMo674nvTM/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:590/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ2OTUw/NzQtMTM3MjUxMTk5/OC04NTQ2LmpwZWc.jpeg

― scott seward, Thursday, 26 September 2024 18:26 (one year ago)

compact disc chauvinism and assholery of the first order!

― scott seward, Thursday, 26 September 2024 18:26 (one year ago)

whether you know it or not this shitty sounding album changed your life. But now it sounds good.

― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Thursday, 26 September 2024 18:43 (one year ago)

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