Rhythmn & Groove Vs Melody.

Phil Collins to thread....

This kinda sounds like Marcello to me, except (maybe) for the Schoenberg part. MC, what's yr take on Arnold?

I don't think I will ever sort out whether music really "means" anything in the sense of having some sort of content, but I will say that I find that some rhythms evoke an emotional response just as much as melody and harmony do. (But from what you've said about emoion being unimportant, this is probably not even the issue you have in mind.)

Ironic that you would mention Schonberg negatively. Isn't serialism the ultimate "head" music in your sense? I'm not saying I like it, but you can't deny that it takes a highly intellectual approach to music.

but at least you will get much further than geir.

As for rhythm, a groove may well be there in the background, just making sure the pulse is being held correct and all that. But the melody and its harmonies (which is also something that doesn't exist in Schönberg's "music" at all) are most important.

None of those are even remotely close to "pissing all over The Beatles" although Stevie Wonder did, during the mid 70s, make several album tracks that were highly melodic and definitely among the best of that era. His singles were usually too R&B based though.

Oh, but nothing The Beatles did was "R&B based", right?

COUGHalmost everything they ever didCOUGH

That's possibly the most absurd thing you've ever said, Geir (and I'm not even a big fan of Schönberg). BY DEFINITION a musical genius will get more out of ANY piece of music than a tone-deaf guy because the musical genius will be able to hear and understand what's going on in the music!

Or the rythm and groove in the Beatles for that manner.

www.ilxor.com

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Alan

For real!

For someone who proclaims themself interested in "European melodic traditions" as such, you'd think he/she/it'd choose another band as their "sacred cow" besides The "Our favorite performers are Chuck Berry and Little Richard" Beatles!

There was nothing new about music influenced by Chuck Berry and Little Richard in 1963. If that was everything they had to offer, The Beatles would never have made it outside Cavern Club. It is The Beatles' Music Hall and Tin Pan Alley influences that made them the biggest and most important band ever.

Nah. I forgot the http://. I'll do better next time.

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Alan

Actually, it was a niche-previously-unfulfilled-in-pop-culture that made The Beatles the "most important band ever".

Had they made the EXACT same music they did, without being the center of the (Western, white) world's attention, nobody would regard them as the "most important band ever".

A musical niche, yes. The Beatles were combining the rawness of R&B with the melodic and harmonic qualities of Tin Pan Alley and Brill Building pop.

I'm still blown away that it's possible to believe these things to be mutually exclusive of each other. Have you ever tried performing or writing music yourself?

The Beatles were the Everly Brothers with a fucking minor seventh chord where no man had put one before, and a producer who would have been better off doing more comedy records.

The best bits of music are clearly TEXTURE and HARMONY.

(ooh, that sounds dirty...)

Depends a lot from album to album, artist to artist. Generally, jazz is harmonically interesting, while melodically too "free". I prefer precomposition to improvisation.

And he didnt answer whats wrong with rythhmn & groove.

There is absolutely nothing wrong about rhythm or groove. But a lot is wrong about music that seems to be about nothing else than rhythm and groove, or even about music that puts the main emphasis on anything else than melody and harmony.

I have no "one-thread-a-day agreement". It is only those Top 20 lists that I will limit to one a day.

"One moment of Joe Turner singing that 'It's your dollar now, but it's gonna be mine some sweet day,' is worth more than all they (the Beatles) have ever said."
Murray Kempton, 1966

(Well, at least I know which ILMer not to invite to my next drum circle...well, besides Ally who's also made her distaste for the "drum circle" phenomenon quite obvious in the past.)

Sounds like one guy whose agenda was not about music, but rather about politics.

Nice enough (and I fully agree with his political agenda), but there is this nice little thing called music too, which deserved to be viewed outside political or even social contexts.

*ahem*

MUSIC

Main Entry: mu·sic
Pronunciation: 'myü-zik
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English musik, from Old French musique, from Latin musica, from Greek mousikE any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse
Date: 13th century
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony

.

So, what's the deal, do you disagree with THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE over the importance of RHYTHM in MUSIC?

great thread, so many memories

omg

Waking this thread up is a crime against humanity.― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle),

hahaha oh dear. someones gonna be grumpy!

Forget dancing: I'm wondering if Geir has ever had sex.
― Burr, Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:10 PM (7 years ago)

did we get an answer?

I love the fact he replied if he ever danced. Puts paid to the lie that he never interacted with anyone. The good old days indeed!

i hope d4rnielle doesn't send us to the hague

I want to know if Geir has changed his mind about anything in his first post.

while James Brown competes with Arnold Schönberg as for being the worst disaster ever to happen to music.

did Schoenberg seriously influence anybody??

"lol geir, amirite?"
http://operachic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/18/mttjb.jpg

I dunno, Crut, it's not something I know about.

The best works of Genesis are actually better than anything Mozart or Brahms ever did.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 7 March 2003 23:41 (7 years ago)

!!!!!!!!!!

Serialism is "head music", but "head music" doesn't have a point if it doesn't appeal to your ear. A musical genius will get no more out of a Schönberg piece than a tone deaf guy will, so the point is just lost.

Geir

tom do you remember this thread? You posted on it, does it bring back any memories?

Steve Hackett’s 2009 album Out Of The Tunnel’s Mouth has received unanimous acclaim from the media and fans alike. Having spent much of this year touring the world with his “Around the World in 80 Trains” show he now returns to the UK to play a further 14 dates in November and December.

Such was the response to last year’s performances, Hackett and his Electric Band will be treating his legions of fans to another awe-inspiring display of virtuoso musicianship as Steve takes the audience on a remarkable and exhilarating musical journey. The new show will feature at least one additional Genesis song, as well as Sierra Quemada, Golden Age of Steam, Shadow of the Hierophant and Valley of the Kings. Fans will also be treated to a brand new, never heard before track.

Special guests Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree and John Wetton of Asia will join Steve at his Shepherds Bush Empire show for a song or two. Wetton and Hackett will perform their version of All Along the Watchtower.

Of the forthcoming UK shows, Steve says: “It's been great to take the Train on the Road tour around the world, but as Dorothy says "There's no place like home" and I'm really looking forward to touring the UK again - My electric band will be celebrating the special edition of my album "Out of the Tunnel's Mouth", along with some surprise numbers... See you in November!”

That was back when I was still making the mistake of taking Geir seriously (xp)

Geir doesn't do live music iirc
xp

but tom, geir is very serious about what he says!

(ps can you answer crut's question?)

Geir doesn't do live music iirc

For fear his foot might tap

"The straights all hate the noise we make
Because they know their heads will shake"

Iggy, "Beyond the Law"

(ps can you answer crut's question?)

"Influence" is a stupid concept. Schoenberg is, uh, a pretty important figure in 20th century music.

Geir seems to think that if it hadn't been for Arnold Schoenberg and James Brown everything would have been hunky dory (not the Bowie album) when, of course, someone else would have just had the same ideas eventually

He *taught* Berg, Webern, John Cage, Lou Harrison, so sure, you could claim he was an influence on those guys.

but not on geir?

Same haircut maybe.

Well he influenced John Cage not to be Arnold Schoenberg, so maybe he did influence Geir after all.

Was Geir classically trained?

um Geir is definitely not classically trained

he doesn't understand the first thing about music theory and people call him on it all the time

The best works of Genesis are actually better than anything Mozart or Brahms ever did.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 7 March 2003 23:41 (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Wow, that's almost like an alternate universe Geir trolling Geir. I don't even think I can get my mind around it.

Geir do you still believe The best of Genesis is better than Mozart or Brahms? And which composers do you think are better than Genesis and The Beatles?

while James Brown competes with Arnold Schönberg as for being the worst disaster ever to happen to music.

^^schonberg/james brown collabo could've been like the greatest thing ever

Geir Hongro, out of curiousity, do you ever dance?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, March 5, 2003 2:12 PM Bookmark]

This is an amazing post. Did it get excelsiored/quoted at the time?

more than likely.

shakey are you trained?

Geir do you still believe The best of Genesis is better than Mozart or Brahms?

Genesis' best moments are better than any other music ever made in the history of Mankind.

Otherwise, I have no problem standing by my first post, but I was a bit too harsh on Sly Stone later on. :)

Haha yes you were. What is your favourite sly stone album geir?

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/b/b8/Bearbaiting.jpg

http://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/content/images/8/17/Resource/9624-0.jpg

"Stand!". Because it is the one who is closest to the musical spirit of whatever else was going on in SF at the time.

Geir seems to think that if it hadn't been for Arnold Schoenberg and James Brown everything would have been hunky dory (not the Bowie album) when, of course, someone else would have just had the same ideas eventually

Maybe, maybe not. Classical music was all but dead in 1920 anyway, and the weird ideas of Stravinsky were almost as crazy, so there was no hope.

As for James Brown, I find it likely that the 60s Motown sound and the later Quiet Storm style would have been more influential on R&B and R&B and "rock" and pop would probably have melted together to a larger extent, becoming the same genre.

R&B and "rock" and pop would probably have melted together to a larger extent, becoming the same genre.

Pretty sure this has already happened in the U.S. back in the Fifties

Pretty sure this has already happened in the U.S. back in the Fifties

Brill Building pop maybe. Rock'n'roll lacked the melodic aspect of the pop genre.

shakey are you trained?

well I don't pee on the floor

I have never gone to school for music, but I've taught myself a fair amount - have been playing music for 15+ years, can read chord charts, have read The Study of Counterpoint etc.

Brill Building pop maybe. Rock'n'roll lacked the melodic aspect of the pop genre.

Sure, as long you don't look at what was actually charting on the pop charts at the time (in the U.S. anyway).

I know the US chart was dominated by Brill Building pop. Plus some early soul music that was actually quite melodic (just like Motown and Quiet Storm later on)

I came here thinking this thread would be the origin of the famous "Rhythm means nothing to me and never will" quote, but I see it isn't here.

I think that was a fairly recent quote.

while James Brown competes with Arnold Schönberg as for being the worst disaster ever to happen to music.

^^schonberg/james brown collabo could've been like the greatest thing ever

In honour of this thread, and with love to Geir, I just created a Pandora station built around just these two artists: https://www.pandora.com/station/3727513725785488329