Why is The Genre Of 'Metal' so maligned?

Why do people malign metal? Beats me - but it does come with a lot of tasteless, tuneless history.

I agree with Scott completely. Most dont wont investigate the genre it maligns. Or opinions are based on what they heard 15 years or more ago.
Theres plenty of heavy music that isnt just 'heavy metal' but has elements of metal combined with other music. This music just gets dismissed as 'Dumb metal'.
Neurosis or Isis are as relevant as Aphex Twin or Squarepusher or any other critical favorite in the world of music. But maybe the real reason its maligned is because its seen as populist music. Who Knows?

I've asked myself this question many times.

I think most people would like it for the reasons I like it but are put off by:

The clothes, leather, denim, heeeeeeuge trousers
The lyrics - satan, dragons, angst
The personalities (of the band members)
The fact that it's mostly kids that like it
The album covers
etc.
etc.
etc.

None of these things attract me to the music but they don't bother me much either.

(And though the economic class of hip-hop's audience might ALSO be the same as that of metal and country, the RACIAL MAKEUP of those listeners would tend to be somewhat different. Which I bet matters.)

(Though obviously class distinctions also exist WITHIN the hip-hop audience -- and within metal and country audiences for that matter -- and THOSE distinctions often help determine what gets maligned by whom, too. I.E: Critics respect the Roots more than Trick Daddy, Metallica more than Poison, Steve Earlie more than Toby Keith, etc.)

i like voivod.

but sometimes "real" metal sucks compared to the fake stuff.

Apart from Metallica, all these bands come from the hardcore or alt-rock side of things, not from the 'metal' lineage (as far as I know, these bands don't even consider *themselves* metal).

Exactly. When most people think of innovative metal, they come up with "Tool and Metallica" and that's pretty much the end of the road for them. That's partially by design; Death, Cryptopsy, Darkthrone, et al. are not looking for widespread support from critics, because it would trample on the "true metal" beliefs of the scene (though they too vary often). And for that, they're completely ignored.

Dillinger Escape Plan, Isis, and Shadows Fall have gotten the most interest of any metal bands in recent years, but that's mainly due to the fact that they equally draw from Hardcore (which at this point consists almost entirely of metal acts under a separate banner) as they do metal. In some cases, their contributions are also a bit overstated (DEP, for instance, is nothing more than a clone of Human Remains, a long forgotten NJ metal act).

-understands this was pretty much restating the case-
Alan

Scott's OTM about Anathema. I once played it for a person I was working in a record show with and they refused to accept that it was a metal band because of their own personal disinterest in the genre.

Chuck is OTM in return...except about the new Immortal.

-
Alan

Well, "Serenades"/"Pentecost III"-era Anathema certainly was. Can't be bothered with the newer Pink Floyd worshipping, but if you mean that their past as a metal band holds them back even if there's no metal at all to be found on their newer albums, it's indeed pretty striking. Lots of ex-metal bands (Paradise Lost, Tiamat, Ulver, Katatonia) have had problems gaining a foothold in their new genres.

so what?? they're wrong.

and dillinger escape plan have as much to do with hardcore punk as metal, too, when you get down to it. though then again, lots of punk WAS metal. there hasn't been a clear line for 20 years, at least. if not since the sex pistols, or the stooges, or the kinks, or link wray.

(or, heh heh, the chambers brothers. but don't get me started again.)

-
Alan

On the other hand, "sons of northern darkness" by immortal and that new album by old man's child aren't all they're cracked up to be, i swear.

Old Man's Child is completely generic, limp and worthless - haven't heard a single exciting riff in their albums, which can't even be said for Dimmu Borgir... The Immortal album isn't doing anything new either (epic heavy metal songs with black and death metal aesthetics) but somehow it's RARE to hear an album with such quality riffs, songwriting and production. It's also probably one of the few albums today that can be appreciated by both the older heavy metal crowd of the 70s/80s and the modern metal audience.

As for Alan: The Hellacopters ARE a generic Nomads ripoff.

(Though then again, the Nomads themselves were actually a generic Chocolate Watchband ripoff, which never stopped me from loving them. And Chocolate Watchband were a generic Yardbirds ripoff, which never stopped me from loving THEM. And the Hellacopters are better now that they're ripping off the first Montrose album, anyway.)

That's probably because Katatonia did a cover of "Nightmares By The Sea".

metal and hardcore are definitely different, especially socially/culturally; in terms of sound, there are minute differences that i am not necesasrily attuned to. there are also many different styles of hardcore and metal - slow, chuggachugga, d-beat, etc. i'm not wellversed in the topic but my drinking buddies are all hardcore and metalheads so they could answer better.

what was the root of the metal/hardcore crossover - later black flag albums?

This is going to fast for me. I've got a baby on my lap.

Raising a kid to a true CHILD OF METAL, I trust.

Well, the ROOT of metal/harcore crossover was *Raw Power* by the Stooges, probably. Or Blue Cheer. Or "My Generation," or whatever.

But in the early '80s, yeah, any Black Flag album after the first one (i.e.: *My War* and later) comes to mind, and after that distinctions fall like dominoes. Also: Flipper and the Angry Samoans, who were both stealing Sabbath riffs before Greg Ginn decided to, I think.

My favorite thing about Immortal is that they LOOK really cool.

Pat Boone ate someone's heart once

and r'n'r originators didn't really engage in fascist aesthetics either, the transgressive aspect that they all capitalized on was "race-mixing", "miscegenation" etc. Which is by it's nature p much the opposite of fascism.

I’ve never heard anything like that about Buddy Holly. What’s the deal?

(the “pervert or pedophile” thing)

I have huge respect for Chuck Berry as an artist and rock 'n roll as a genre, I think he deserves all the praise he's gotten over the years, but after learning of his history (which seems to have hardly diminished his public reputation at all, I guess to the general public pedophilia was just some wacky thing people did back then), I have decidedly less respect for him as a person. I feel exactly the same way about idiots like Varg or Mustaine, and metal as a genre.

rock n roll originators (Berry, Elvis, Lewis, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, etc.) were generally "perverts" and/or pedophiles, but I don't think they were fascists/nazis

― Οὖτις,

I'm not sure if it's very productive to get into a discussion whether racism ranks a person higher or lower on the acceptibility scale than pedophilia or violence against women.

I disagree and maybe it's worth discussing. Is a "pervert or pedophile" really better? Personally I'd rather have a secret bigot living next door than a secret pedophile or abuser of women, and I say that as a person with gay relatives and POC who visit me pretty often, and no children

Ideally I'd live on a block of nothing but gay and lesbian, Bernie-voting, techno-producing, feminist Wiccan potheads, but we can't always have the things we want. But given the choice between a neighbor who reads nazi books between his work shifts at the car dealership and a registered sex offender creepily ogling ten-year olds (of which there are many around here), it's a no brainer for me

So yes I guess I'm saying I'd rather have the guys in Hate Forest living next door than R Kelly

threesomes with Little Richard and his "exotic dancer" girlfriend Lee Angel, if Little Richard is to be believed

xps

But given the choice between a neighbor who reads nazi books between his work shifts at the car dealership and a registered sex offender creepily ogling ten-year olds (of which there are many around here), it's a no brainer for me

so says the white guy

I don't know if there's anything productive in determining the relative moral merits of pedophilia vs. fascism - they are not the same thing and not equivalent imo.

This is def not the turn i expected in this thread

not sure that's a thought experiment that needed to happen paul

why is ILX so maligned?

Fair enough. Let's move on, maybe this isn't productive.

this whole revive has sucked ass great work everyone

I don't want to hear or talk about Buddy Holly's sex life as told by Little Richard or otherwise, but also threesomes aren't very perverted, in the rock star scheme of things.

so says the white guy

― Οὖτις

This is indeed a very personal thing and tied in with the whole privilege concept. Women appalled by handwaved misogyny, Eastern Europeans horrified by Western middle class casual flirting with communism, everybody can fill in the blanks.

Sensitivity to other people's fears and boundaries is the basis for respectful human interaction, I am however very sceptical whether that makes for good artists or art since there's an absolutely immense mountain of evidence against it.

(shit, sorry for beating the dead horse)

"I am very sceptical whether [sensitivity to other people's fears and boundaries] makes for good artists or art."

Got it.

peace, man otm re: threesomes (just had to type that phrase)

this whole revive has sucked ass great work everyone

― cheese canopy (map), Wednesday, November 13, 2019 2:25 PM bookmarkflaglink

Yea you added a lot throwing peanuts from the rafters. But that's all you are good for these days

If someone gave me the choice between knowingly living next to a Nazi or knowingly living next to a pedophile... I would move

we already have the "rank anything you feel like ranking" thread

"I am very sceptical whether [sensitivity to other people's fears and boundaries] makes for good artists or art."

Got it.

― shared unit of analysis (unperson)

Yeah I expect basic human decency from other people in everyday life. I don't particularly need this in art.

If someone gave me the choice between knowingly living next to a Nazi or knowingly living next to a pedophile... I would move

― brigadier pudding (DJP)

otm

Your Realtor® needs to pay a surcharge for the MLS module showing where Nazis live, but it's worth it IMO

Similarly, if someone gave me the choice of purchasing art created by someone I knew was a Nazi or purchasing art created by someone I knew was a pedophile, I would not buy any art that day. In fact, it would likely inspire me to go back to making my own work.

Yeah I expect basic human decency from other people in everyday life. I don't particularly need this in art.

But do you really need the opposite?

I am extremely bored, at this point in my life (I will be 48 in December), with the compulsive pursuit of "transgressiveness" in art. This is when I start to worry that metal, a music I have been listening to for over 30 years, may actually have poisoned the minds of multiple generations of (mostly) white (mostly) men. I just...don't get it anymore. Like, I still love a good riff, but I don't understand the burning need so many metal fans (and metal bands) apparently have for that riff to be accompanied by the imagery of toxic adolescent nihilism. When that need manifests in men my age or even older, I feel a little bit ashamed for them.

These portraits of Trump are both so good in there own ways it's impossible to choose!

xp

However, this is where things aren’t so “similarly” anymore.

Why?

I like plenty of extremely pleasant inoffensive music that is not transgressive in the slightest, at least half of my listening is ambient and minimalism/classical.

I’m not yet old enough to think music is corrupting the youth but all those older generations might’ve been right all along.

I don't worry about music corrupting the youth so much as I find an artists' need to be "transgressive" (however they define it) as boring and juvenile. Like "you're STILL trying to piss off yr dad?"

There's almost nothing transgressive about metal in 2019 tbf.

Music is transgressive it commits crimes

I don't worry about music corrupting the youth so much as I find an artists' need to be "transgressive" (however they define it) as boring and juvenile. Like "you're STILL trying to piss off yr dad?"

― Οὖτις

or in some metal bands' cases, they might be dads trying to piss off younger generations

that's even worse!

I'm just not sure I understand why "I am not particularly interested in advancing the careers of people who would actively malign/harm me and/or my children" is an unthinkable stance for me to take.

Xpost cos metal can't really be transgressive anymore, we get a lot of gimmicky acts that try to be over the top and stick out. Some are cool (Ghoul, Brujeria) some are godawful (Gutalax, a terrible goregrind band that sings only about feces and their fans bring tp and plungers to shows).

Yea yea "but Neanderthal you'd like the latter wouldn't you nyuk nyuk" ehh a proactive "fuck off and die".

There are already too many *shit* metal bands

Xpost it's not. Makes perf sense to me.

I think it’s not a sin to acknowledge that unpleasant people can make beautiful and/or enjoyable things, and I don’t feel I’m in a position to refuse giving them credit for that. Everybody has their own reasons how they became who they are, maybe they’re mentally ill, ageing reactionaries or just dicks, who am I to judge. I guess refusing to send them money is defensible, but only barely. With pretty much any metal band, you’re not quite funding a political party here, just some dude’s rent or booze.

Maybe I was insufficiently cynical/critical in my teens but this whole fucking art/entertainment business turned out to be one gigantic collection of milkshake ducks anyway. I recently found myself buying a pair of headphones (a gift) branded by some billionaire dude who once beat up a woman in public (I happily bought his album at the time) and then wrote a hit song ten years later making fun about it (I bought that album too).

xpost dumb gimmicky acts have always been there, I’m not sure if that’s a specific problem of metal in 2019. Rather, “it’s all been done”, and that’s no different to any other genre before it.

I think there is a large amount of difference between "that person is unpleasant" and "that person would like to see me dead"; I don't think I am under any obligation to give money to someone who would cheerfully have me killed, regardless of how groovy their tunes are.

jokes on you those headphones suck

lol yeah I was gonna say

Fully agree, you're definitely not under any obligation, but you can acknowledge they're good at what they do (especially if what they do is scream about satan, not play a bunch of nazi songs).

I have paid loads of money to artists who probably would have me beat up if I told them what I think about them.

xpost yeah well tell that to my nephew.

There are a lot of sub-genres under the metal umbrella and a ton of bands out there - it's impossible for me to keep up with much of it. It's not hard to avoid the vile shit. I don't feel like I am missing out on anything in my life by avoiding people who use their art to cause harm to people/philosophies that I care about. At the same time, metal is music that expresses rage, aggression, cynicism, and a host of negative feelings; and even at my age (almost as old as unperson) I love that. It resonates with me. As Siegbran said, some of the people working within these spaces, mining the depths of ones are bound to be a little fucked up on some level. It's not easy to mine the depths of ones inner darkness to create art out of it and some people have to dig less deep than others. Sometimes I wonder about actors who play nothing but despicable villains... if it wears on them to be in that space for long periods of their working days.

Anyway, with all that said, kind of going back to the broader topic of this thread: There are great heavy bands out there right now who are either female or prominently feature female musicians and I think metal needs that perspective and other alternative viewpoints to stay relevant.

I adore the Lingua Ignota album that came out this year

which is transgressive as fuck, I'm a fan

I also like the Alcest album (nb: I don't speak French)

I adore Alcest. Need to peep the new one.

Boy do i not want to tell you what that almost autocorrected to